Wet sticking foundation dowels

[dakota99]

I am just wondering how many of you out there allow contractors to wet stick foundation dowels. I generally allow typical foundation wall dowels to be pushed into place but always require retaining walls to have all rebar tied in place. I have run into a situation where the contractor placed dowels for a retaining wall after pouring the concrete for the footings A.K.A. wet sticking the dowels. I have since required the contractor to epoxy additional rebar into the tension side of the wall to ensure proper bond is achieved. Of course holy hell broke loose and I am the only engineer that does not allow wet sticking dowels on retaining walls. The state building inspector has also taken sides with the contractor. am I being too conservative here.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Not in my opinion.. It's your design and you are responsible for it - so what you say goes.

Five years down the road - the contractor is gone and you are left holding the problem - you!!

Can you do it - probably - esp if you make them vibrate or consolidate after they install.

 

[RHTPE]

dakota99: I'm with you. Wet-setting dowels for a single family residential foundation may be okay - I could live with that. But for a critical structure like a retaining wall or a very code-conscious structure (commercial, multi-family, etc.), I would insist on the bars being tied in place before placing concrete, and I would insist that the concrete be properly consolidated.


Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA

 

[kelowna]

Is it possible to do a 'pull out' test? Tell him that if he can prove, by pulling out a couple of bars and recording what load they take before failure, that the dowels are properly installed, then you are OK with it.

I work on bridges, and wet doweling is certainly not allowed. I do not think you are being unreasonable. Incidentally I have epoxy-ed dowels in the past, and it is not a great deal.
The building inspector is not signing the drawings, you are.

 

[hokie66]

He is lucky you are allowing him to retrofit bars rather than pulling out the footing.

 

[Einsteim]

I think if you research ACI, you will find it's not allowed.

 

[Lutfi]

I do not allow it, period! It is a bad practice and contractors like to do it to make their jobs easier.

Regards,
Lutfi

 

[tft2001]

Stick to your guns. I would not allow either. This is another way for the contractor to cut corners and if anything went wrong, guess who they would be pointing the finger at??

 

[dakota99]

Thank you for all your input. The contractor is going to do a pull test on the dowels and drill and epoxy additional bars. I am very curious to see the results from the pull test.

 

[youngstructural]

I would love to see those pull results, being very much of the "DO NOT wet-set" opinion myself.

Post the results when you get them, please.

Regards,

YS

B.Eng (Carleton)
Working in New Zealand, thinking of my snow covered home...

 

[kslee1000]

Have you specified percentage for testing? What is the pass/fail criteria? Is this going to set precedent for future practice? Would then be tested again, or "OK" based on past test result?

Don't mean to pick on, just something to think and prepare for. I am curious on the result as well.

 

[BAretired]

Wet sticking dowels is not an acceptable practice for reinforcement required to develop its ultimate strength as in a retaining wall. A contractor might achieve satisfactory results with the correct placement technique, but the inspector has no satisfactory way of evaluating the work after the concrete has set.

BA

 

[jike]

It doesn't matter if the pull tests prove that particular installation is OK, it is meaningless for setting a precidence because of the variation of timing and technique involved.

I do not allow wet setting except for projects with insignficant frost walls.

 

[bjb]

I've seen a contractor wet stick some dowels at a depressed foundation wall that would later be topped with an apron slab. The concrete was very stiff, and by the time the conctractor got to it they had to beat the dowels in with a hammer. To address this, the contractor then added water to the concrete to make it more workable, adding insult to injury.

Even though this was only for a slab overpour, the hammered-in dowels can't be close to properly embedded now, and watering the concrete weakened it.

Do not allow wet sticking. All reinforcement and other embedded items should be secured in-place prior to pouring concrete. We have that note on our drawings, and don't budge from it.

 

[kslee1000]

So, why ever bothers go for pull test?

 

[hokie66]

When you do the pull tests, make sure he tests the epoxied bars also.

 

[vandede427]

I am really surprised at one thing you said, that the "state building inspector has also taken sides with the contractor."

Is the contractor doing the pull tests himself? Sounds like a conflict of interest. Get the owner to hire a third party.

I never allow wet sticking. I also never get requests to do so.

 

[msucog]

as a former contractor, i recommend that wet-sticking not be allowed for retaining walls. if you think you've seen some scary things during inspections, you should see what happens when a contractor is allowed to do what they want with no one there. besides it's not difficult to tie the rebar in place prior to placing the concrete. i see this quite often when i perform special inspections and i don't allow it unless the structural engineer gives approval to do so. my word of advice: just don't allow it. if anyone here in the U.S. needs an "excuse" to keep from looking like the bad guy in these tough economic times (assuming anyone even cares about their image when their stamp is at risk), just explain that the building codes don't allow wet sticking and IBC is now state law in most U.S. states.

 

[lsmfse]

See ACI318-05, 7.5.1 and commentary. We don't allow it except for the occasional Slab on grade footing dowels for residential construction.