What are these I/O's 3

[spongebob17]

Hello,

Just graduated as an electrical engineer.

Anyway, I am evaluating I/O's for a CIP System. On one of their CSS 425gpm pumps (coming from a Water Reclaim Tank), it said 2in/2out, with Analog 1in/1out. What would these I/O's be? The analog I/O might be for a VFD and the other 2in/2out I'm guessing is running/fault at the input side and reset/? at the output. I'm not sure...can anyone explain why there are 2in/2out?

Thanks!

 

[itsmoked]

You are talking to a large spectrum of people, CIP means nothing to a bunch of us... Define it please.

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.-

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[nmark]

CIP could mean Clean in Place used in pharmaceuticals and food processing.

 

[CanadianTaff]

CIP = Clean In Place, yes?

CSS = I have no idea.

What the I/O is doing is anyones guess, you have given far too little information.

stop/start/feedback/error ????

 

[itsmoked]

Yes 'CSS' is a good point too!

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.-

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[spongebob17]

Sorry, I didnt realize I'll get a respond this quick.

CIP is a clean in place and I thought that acronym is as common as PID, PLC...etc., and since we were in the subject of CIP, I thought CSS pump will be known. CSS is a circulatory supply pump, pumping 425gpm, coming out from a water reclaim tank. I'm so sorry for this confusion.

The way a cip work is by flush, wash and rinse using chemical solution to a system that would be too hard to disassemble in beverage industry or to be more specific:

http://www.controleng.com/index.asp?layout=articleCtl&articleid=CA6420830

Anyway, back to my question...I know this pump has a variable freq drive, by noticing the analog input/output. I'm thinking the 2 in is for running and fault. 2out is probably reset? I'm not sure so I'm looking for a more detail to why there would be 2in/2out for the CSSpump?

 

[ScottyUK]

Either look in the manual or ask the vendor. The link doesn't give any information about the pump as far as I can see, or it is well hidden among the adverts.

Inputs might well be start and stop if it uses a standard two button starter. Outputs could be running and fault. We could guess all day - without any information that's all we can do.

Regarding using abbreviations, some of us work in telecoms, some in power generation, some in circuit design - and everything in between. Don't assume that abbreviations which are well known in your industry mean anything to people outside of it.





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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[spongebob17]

Someone asked what a CIP was so...that website was to give some general info in how a CIP system work not to describe the pump in question. The CSS pump, I had described already. If you read again...its a circulatory supply pump from a reclaim tank controlled by a Variable Frequency Drive.

But I see this question really is more for the controls or process engineers. I really thought by me saying CIP would bring in people that knows about the system. But, unfortunately there's none...or is there?

Sorry...I would be more descriptive next time I pose a question.

Thanks anyway for all your infos.

 

[ScottyUK]

FFS, who makes the pump? Who makes the drive? You give so little information that we can **GUESS** what the inputs and outputs might do but what else do you expect from the information you've given us? The inputs and outputs are so configurable on just about any modern drive that there are dozens of possibilities.

There's nothing particularly special or difficult or complex about the process shown in the cartoon, and a number of us work in, or provide services to, the process industries where there are some truly complex control problems so you are mistaken about the level of expertise among the members here. But even with that background it is pretty much impossible to answer the questions you posed. Have you got a P&ID for the process that you can upload? That would be a big step forward. What level of automation does your process have / require? There's a world of difference in I/O requirements between a manually supervised batch controller and a fully automated continuous process under the control of a SCADA or DCS system, regardless of whether the end product is food & drink or petrochemicals. The problem so far is how you are presenting things. Take a little more time to list specifics and don't assume people know your installation with the familiarity you have. You'll get more out of the site.

Oh, and welcome to Eng-Tips!


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[spongebob17]

ScottyUK,

I must've typed this wrong:

"But, unfortunately there's none...or is there?"

I'm sorry if that offended you. What I meant to ask was if there was a Controls or Process forum here?...but my mind was going faster than my typing.

The only thing I know about that pump is what I just described.

You see, I am implementing these I/O's into a ladder diagram. And the only thing I have to go by is a flow diagram and the I/O's given to me. This project I am workng on was from another engineer who had left our company. I came to you guys so maybe I would save time and money for our company. There are no other info on this but to go to that company site and spec it out and I guess thats what I'll just end up doing anyway.

And...Thanks, I feel very welcome.

 

[ScottyUK]

There is forum830 - some knowledgeable guys in there, plus forum698 too. There's an entire area dedicated to manufacturing engineers:

http://www.eng-tips.com/threadforum.cfm?lev3=51

Most people keep an eye on all the fora relating to their area of expertise, so there's no reason to cross-post between fora, plus cross-posting will incur the wrath of the site owners who sometimes make offending posts disappear!

Post the flow diagram - faq238-1161 gives some hints - plus anything else you can tell us about how the system is designed to operate and people will contribute whatever they can.

And don't worry about offending me - you'd have to try _much_ harder than that before I'd get worried!


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[spongebob17]

Ok...thanks for this info. I will surely keep that in mind. As for "how to post pics"...I will have to look into that when I get home and definitely use it.

As for this project, this system is so old that the P&ID's are hand drawn so... I will have to go back to that company site anyways. There's a lot of infos missing.


Thanks ScottyUK!

 

[Skogsgurra]

Good show, Scotty! I think that plim will become a regular here. And, plim, sorry - I have no idea about your I/O:s

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

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100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...

 

[HEC]

plim,
Have experience in food, pharma, dairy and beverage industries as well as some practical programming. The motor control and monitoring for a "CSS" pump, which incidently has as many diferent names as there are industries and companies that use CIP, would be a "standard" imposed by the electrical/control system design. There should be somewhere within the project documentation a functional description, this should describe either the standard "drive monitoring" control requirements or the specific I/O functions. another possible reference would be the wiring diagram to see where these I/O are physically wired to. That should give a hint as to what to do with the inputs. Failing all that why not ask the process or electrical engineer responsible for the work what they are for. Remember there are no silly questions, only silly answers.
A couple of pieces of advice, when starting a new job or project keep an acronym dictionary, they do change between industries and companies, NEVER assume anything, and in programming it is always connected to the real world, understand what is going to happen if your program fails!

Cheers


Mark Hutton

 

[CanadianTaff]

For your info CIP and CSS are not global terms known to all and sundry.

I have worked in the food industry and used a CIP system.

CIP systems are designed systems for a particular job, they are not off the shelf units you buy like when you buy a car.

You have offered no clue as to the manufacturer who produced the I/O.

I/O is normally referenced for a PLC system, are these PLC I/O.

As far as what they do? Its like asking I have two coins in my pocket, can you tell me what they are?

Very rarely do I see a VFD with discrete I/O any more, usually they are interfaced with Profibus, remote I/O etc etc. Not to say it cannot have discrete I/O.

Are there controls people here, yes I'm one and I'm sure most of the others who replied are one too.

I'm sorry to say but your question is so vague, when you say you have just graduated as an electrical engineer, the thought of it gets me quite scared.

Surely there must ne drawings of the system that will give you a clue, or at least give you enough info to give us a clue.

Oh yes, the pump will not say in and out, analog or disctrete, whatever is controlling the pump will have I/O.

A pump is controlled by a motor, the motor possibly by a VFD.

 

[TWControls]

I'm a little late on this one, but about being specific...

When I saw "CIP", the first thing I thought was "Common Industrial Protocol", which is how Devicenet, Controlnet, and Ethernet/IP communicate. Also you are asking about I/O and this is the PLC section so this would be "the common acronym such as PID, PLC...".

I would have to put on my water treatment hat to relate CIP to "Clean in Place"



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TW Controls -

http://www.twcontrols.com

 

[Watthour]

Not to differ, but even the latest ABB, Toshiba, AB, Danfoss, AC Tech, and other VFDs still have available discrete I/O (both relay and TTL), as well as Profibus, interbus, modbus, CANbus, Ethernet, and some more proprietary comm protocols like AB.

Who made the VFD for the system? Find their manuals and learn how the I/O can be driven. Many OEM drive manuals are available on the www.

 

[CanadianTaff]

'Not to differ, but even the latest ABB, Toshiba, AB, Danfoss, AC Tech, and other VFDs still have available discrete I/O (both relay and TTL)'


Yes, I meant used as opposed to having it in the first place.

 

[eriond]

Well, the analog I/O are obviously: Analog input>speed setting from the operator. Analog output would be used for some sort of speed display or feedback in a regulatory functioning circuit. The digitals are probably Drive Enable and Drive Run (VFD inputs) and the outputs would appear to be status bits (motor running and fault active). Without more information, it is hard to be confident. But, a lot of the early drives had limited control options and these were the types used. I am assuming that best guesses were being solicited.

 

[spongebob17]

Just a brief info of what our project was for this company; was to change out their 35yr old system to a modern control system using Modicon PLC. We had an Engineer that was working on this project but left our company w/o any warning. The only info he had left on this project was couple pages of I/O's that shows how many he had captured for each device and a P&ID (process and instrumenatation diagram) of the system that has no info of the devices.

Anyway, I finally did go to the job site and had to spec out the system and the devices myself and two other engineers. It's a lot clearer for us now.

Eriond, your correct on that...I was also suspecting that.


Everyone, thanks for all the advices.