What compensation is due when sign and sealing for Engineering Firm? 4

[pete600]

Hi all,

I am working towards getting my SE license. When my license is finalized there is a chance my employer, a PE, will ask me to sign and seal dwgs, etc...

What are standard terms of payment for this?

I was thinking Liability Insurance and increased pay.

Regarding increased pay is it standard to have an increase in hourly/yearly rate? OR to be paid per sign off?

If you think I am not considering anything please let me know and thank you in advance for your responses.

"God grant me the serenity, to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference" -Reinhold Niebuhr

 

[oldestguy]

Where I worked use of my seal was just part of the job, nothing unusual, on projects I did, not some other engineer.

 

[KootK]

The insurance would normally be provided by your employer. And you rarely get paid per sign off. As for your increased worth, it's just simple supply and demand. Somehow, you must estimate the replacement cost of yourself and convince your employer of it. My local licensing board publishes salary surveys which helps with this.

If you're going to provide your own insurance and be paid per sign off, it might've time to consider working as an independent contractor.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[H57]

My experience would be that when an individual gets licensed there is an increase in the person's pay.

While some of it may be the increased liability you have sealing work as a professional engineer, the reality is a lot has to do with the increased value that comes to your company. Billing rates for registered professionals are higher than non-registered professionals.

I have never heard of an employee receiving payment per drawing stamped.

Companies may or may not have additional insurance for personal risk that a registered professional is exposed to. The risk to the individual personally is lower than the risk to the company, though the personal risk isn't zero.

 

[pete600]

Based on your responses it is standard to have increased salary and not pay per use. Regarding the insurance, this is non-negotiable to me. Our firm and the owner/PE are sued at least 3 times per year and I want to be sure I am protected.

Where I worked use of my seal was just part of the job, nothing unusual, on projects I did, not some other engineer.

When I was hired, I was not a PE and the pay I agreed to did not include the liability of sign & sealing designs, also my firm did not pay a penny of the costs for the exam, exam prep, etc... therefore I feel that I have no obligation to take on additional risk without fair compensation.

If you're going to provide your own insurance and be paid per sign off, it might've time to consider working as an independent contractor.

maybe in the future

Thank you for your responses.

"God grant me the serenity, to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference" -Reinhold Niebuhr

 

[thaidavid40]

For an engineering firm to be sued an average of three times a year seems a very excessive rate to me, even if the the firm were a large one, with numerous projects. Is this some sort of specialty firm, with more than the usual liability exposure? If it isn't, I would be somewhat concerned about going to work for such a firm in the first place.
Dave

Thaidavid

 

[pete600]

For an engineering firm to be sued an average of three times a year seems a very excessive rate to me, even if the the firm were a large one, with numerous projects. Is this some sort of specialty firm, with more than the usual liability exposure? If it isn't, I would be somewhat concerned about going to work for such a firm in the first place.

We do alot of work for contractors in the NYC area, designing temporary construction equipment; every time a worker is injured on the site, the lawyers just sue everyone. It becomes the firms problem to get a lawyer and prove that it is not culpable.

"God grant me the serenity, to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference" -Reinhold Niebuhr

 

[Ron]

My experience is the same as oldestguy. I guess there has been a change in philosophy over the years. Our goal from Day 1 was to take and pass the P.E. exam. Yes, we usually got a small bump in pay when we passed, but I don't recall many of the engineers being hesitant to sign/seal anything. A few were, but that was unusual.

Granted, the liability picture has changed a bit over the years. In my first consulting engineering job (my second engineering job....the first was design only), we had regular discussions, seminars and continuing education particularly related to liability, contracts and the care that we should routinely exercise. The firm was an international engineering firm that was closely knit and we had a lot of interaction office-to-office. We had an established mentoring program and each person who was allowed to sign/seal reports or drawings on behalf of the company had to first go through a written submittal of work examples and then an oral examination at the corporate level by 4 to 6 very senior engineers who would assess your ability to commit the company's resources by reviewing the work of other engineers, signing and sealing. It was a good process.

 

[KootK]

For a licensed professional engineer to be in a position where they are not comfortable taking formal responsibility for their own work is, in my opinion, ethically dubious. I'd get that sorted or move on. Times are reasonably good.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[Ron]

Well said, KootK!

 

[oldestguy]

If working for a company that does not have legal issues properly set up to protect their employees from being separately sued, it is time to move on.

 

[Guastavino]

It's important to note the local laws. I work in the SE United states. In my jurisdiction, it's my understanding that corporation shields DO NOT cover design professionals for errors and omissions. In other words, an individual labeled "professional" can be personally sued independently of the company itself. Now, with that said, it's rarely done (and usually both the engineer and the company are named in which case insurance kicks in) because all those suing really want is the insurance policy amount. Therefore, it rarely comes up, but is worth noting, because you are taking on personal risk to the benefit of your employer. If they don't compensate you to mitigate that risk, you need to decide if it's worth it.

I could be wrong on my understanding of this as well, but that's how I have been instructed.

It's ironic that getting insurance increases your likelihood of being sued, but it's a reality. However, not having insurance has a direct correlation with not having good clients (because all good clients ask for it)....so, in my humble but accurate opinion, it's an expense well worth it.

 

[dhengr]

Pete600:
I don’t mean to burst your bubble, but also remember, that plans were apparently being stamped and signed yesterday, and they will still be stamped tomorrow, by someone other than you. And, just because you just passed the P.E. exam, you probably can’t do much more for the company tomorrow than you did yesterday. What new value do you really add to the company, that’s important for your advancement? Of course, you should be proud of having passed the P.E. or S.E. exam, a lot of engineers can’t or don’t, for any number of reasons, so that is a feather in your hat and important for your advancement. You should certainly be confident enough in your work and ability as you progress to be willing to sign off on work you do or manage. But, you and your boss have to have a good long, serious talk (series of talks) about what you actually bring to the company, your abilities, your responsibilities, contributions and obligations, your advancement within the company, etc. etc. Certainly, the insurance, E&O, and liability issues should be explained and ironed out or you probably shouldn’t be stamping and signing plans and reports, etc., for the company.

 

[WARose]

I have never heard of an employee receiving payment per drawing stamped.

I've seen that a couple of places I've worked. But it typically hasn't been regular employees (and it's typically been mechanical or electrical guys). We are usually talking 1099 employees that are semi-retired and come in and review stuff on a as needed basis.

The most important thing to get across to an employer when just getting your license is what you will/won't do. I've had to make job changes because people would put stuff in front of me at the last minute (and especially without proper geotechnical info) and just expect me to stamp it. I don't work that way.

 

[msquared48]

Working for this company, and having my stamp tied to it in any way would make me very nervous to say the least with the average of being sued three times per year.

If you are stamping your own work, and are confident with your abilities, no worries. However stamping the work of others I would not do, at least until the underlying cause(s) of the lawsuits are addressed and eliminated.

There is a problem and it needs to be fixed. It just may lie with the partner(s).

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)