My friend mentioned that he received an offer as an associate engineer. The responsiblities of this job look identicle to a "design engineer" and the salary is actually greater then a typical civil engineer I (we both recently graduated as civil engineers). However the title "associate engineer" seems less impressive then "design engineer." I tend to compare associate to an assocaite's degree wich is less then a Bachelors. Where do associate engineers rank when compare to project engineers, project directors, technicians etc.?
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What does "associate" engineer mean?
- Thread starter CivilTom
- Start date
I suppose it means you're foolish enough to hang around with engineers.
Titles are just that, and they vary by company. In my first job out of college, I started as an "associate engineer" and I was promoted a while later to "associate project engineer." I switched companies and instantly became a "senior engineer" with 1.5yrs experience.
Titles are just that, and they vary by company. In my first job out of college, I started as an "associate engineer" and I was promoted a while later to "associate project engineer." I switched companies and instantly became a "senior engineer" with 1.5yrs experience.
Like ivymike says except for a few fairly structured industries titles mean very little between different employers/companies.
In fact even within many companies they mean little to nothing, they don't always directly correspond to pay, responsibility or any other obvious indicator.
If this is the biggest thing you have to worry about today you're doing well.
In fact even within many companies they mean little to nothing, they don't always directly correspond to pay, responsibility or any other obvious indicator.
If this is the biggest thing you have to worry about today you're doing well.
Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
I see a lot of noise around the "associate ..." titles, but the term "Engineering Associate" almost always means a really senior guy.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
It depends on the company and country.
Here in So Cal it usually means toward the bottom of the engineering totem pole.
Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
Here in So Cal it usually means toward the bottom of the engineering totem pole.
Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
structSU10
Structural
my firm is a partnership and we have partners and associates, the associates being our senior engineers. It seems, with my company at least, being an associate is a step to becoming a partner, as all the partners were once associates.
- Thread starter
- #8
With the company I started with, it went:
Engineer
Advanced Engineer
Senior Engineer
Staff Engineer
Senior Staff Engineer
Principal Engineer
Engineering Fellow
Senior Engineering Fellow
Associate was used in management levels, like Associate Director.
Good luck,
Latexman
Engineer
Advanced Engineer
Senior Engineer
Staff Engineer
Senior Staff Engineer
Principal Engineer
Engineering Fellow
Senior Engineering Fellow
Associate was used in management levels, like Associate Director.
Good luck,
Latexman
A firm I was with for many years used this progression of titles for engineers. I have included the basic qualifications for civil engineers as I remember them.
Engineering Technician I -- Undergraduate civil engineering student who has not passed the EIT exam. These were typically 16-24 hr/week employees.
Engineering Technician II -- Undergraduate civil engineering student who has passed the EIT exam. These were typically 16-24 hr/week employees.
Assistant Engineer I -- Holds BSCE or higher degree but has not passed the EIT exam.
Assistant Engineer II -- Holds BSCE or higher degree and has passed EIT exam.
Assistant Engineer III -- I only knew two of these and IIRC the title was actually created for the older one so the company could pay him an engineer's salary even though he wasn't licensed as an engineer. He had dropped out of engineering school during his senior year for medical reasons, then couldn't return for financial reasons. He had worked for the company for many years as a very high-value Engineering Technician II (the best I've ever worked with) and his boss needed to compensate him in a way that our fairly rigid pay structure wouldn't allow. The younger one has a BS and EIT, but has refused for years to take (and pass) the PE exam because he doesn't want to manage projects and budgets and that comes with a PE. He is an excellent electrial engineer and he is satified to make less money in order to avoid project management. The company finally created a "Senior Engineer I" position for him, but without the protected title "Electrial". Both of these guys had heavy client interaction responsibilities (under the supervision of a PE), which is not normal for an assistant engineer and definitely not normal for an engineering tech. The electrical guy also had limited business development responsibilities.
Associate Civil Engineer -- This is what an Assistant Engineer II moves up to after passing the PE exam. "Civil" is added to the title here because, in California at least, "Civil Engineer" is a protected title, as are "Electrical" and "Mechanical."
Senior Civil Engineer I -- This title was reached by an Associate-level engineer after anywhere from 2 years to 7 years additional experience. The speed of promotion to this level depended on the individual, how his boss viewed the title, and the financial state of the company. I made this level at 3 years partly because my boss at the time wanted to get people up to Senior I as quickly as possible because our Net Labor Multiplier took the biggest leap here (i.e the billing rate jumped proportionately more than the salary increase). My next boss (in another office) probably would have held me as an Associate until the 5 to 7 year mark because he took a very conservative view as to what the title "Senior" meant. I know one firm that also requires you attain the age of 30 on the theory that nobody in their 20s deserves to be called a "Senior" anything. Thus, they have three levels of Associate Engineer, with 2-3 years at each level. I don't disagree with their view.
Senior Civil Engineer II -- Promotions to Senior II and above are much less formulaic that the previous rungs on the ladders. Certainly it is still tied to performance, but the opinion of the Managing Engineer and his VP are much more important than the earlier "clock punching." About half the engineers I worked with ended or will end their careers as a Senior II.
Principal Engineer -- This title is general reserved for experienced superstars (not just technical ability, but successfully managing large projects, lots of big business development wins, etc) and experienced technical specialists. This title is most prone to politics. Most people who earn this deserve it, but there were exceptions as well as people who deserved it but never attained it.
Management titles like "Managing Engineer", "District Vice President," etc. were separate. These titles were mostly held by Principal Engineers, but several of the smaller offices had Managing Engineers who were actually Senior IIs.
==========
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill
Engineering Technician I -- Undergraduate civil engineering student who has not passed the EIT exam. These were typically 16-24 hr/week employees.
Engineering Technician II -- Undergraduate civil engineering student who has passed the EIT exam. These were typically 16-24 hr/week employees.
Assistant Engineer I -- Holds BSCE or higher degree but has not passed the EIT exam.
Assistant Engineer II -- Holds BSCE or higher degree and has passed EIT exam.
Assistant Engineer III -- I only knew two of these and IIRC the title was actually created for the older one so the company could pay him an engineer's salary even though he wasn't licensed as an engineer. He had dropped out of engineering school during his senior year for medical reasons, then couldn't return for financial reasons. He had worked for the company for many years as a very high-value Engineering Technician II (the best I've ever worked with) and his boss needed to compensate him in a way that our fairly rigid pay structure wouldn't allow. The younger one has a BS and EIT, but has refused for years to take (and pass) the PE exam because he doesn't want to manage projects and budgets and that comes with a PE. He is an excellent electrial engineer and he is satified to make less money in order to avoid project management. The company finally created a "Senior Engineer I" position for him, but without the protected title "Electrial". Both of these guys had heavy client interaction responsibilities (under the supervision of a PE), which is not normal for an assistant engineer and definitely not normal for an engineering tech. The electrical guy also had limited business development responsibilities.
Associate Civil Engineer -- This is what an Assistant Engineer II moves up to after passing the PE exam. "Civil" is added to the title here because, in California at least, "Civil Engineer" is a protected title, as are "Electrical" and "Mechanical."
Senior Civil Engineer I -- This title was reached by an Associate-level engineer after anywhere from 2 years to 7 years additional experience. The speed of promotion to this level depended on the individual, how his boss viewed the title, and the financial state of the company. I made this level at 3 years partly because my boss at the time wanted to get people up to Senior I as quickly as possible because our Net Labor Multiplier took the biggest leap here (i.e the billing rate jumped proportionately more than the salary increase). My next boss (in another office) probably would have held me as an Associate until the 5 to 7 year mark because he took a very conservative view as to what the title "Senior" meant. I know one firm that also requires you attain the age of 30 on the theory that nobody in their 20s deserves to be called a "Senior" anything. Thus, they have three levels of Associate Engineer, with 2-3 years at each level. I don't disagree with their view.
Senior Civil Engineer II -- Promotions to Senior II and above are much less formulaic that the previous rungs on the ladders. Certainly it is still tied to performance, but the opinion of the Managing Engineer and his VP are much more important than the earlier "clock punching." About half the engineers I worked with ended or will end their careers as a Senior II.
Principal Engineer -- This title is general reserved for experienced superstars (not just technical ability, but successfully managing large projects, lots of big business development wins, etc) and experienced technical specialists. This title is most prone to politics. Most people who earn this deserve it, but there were exceptions as well as people who deserved it but never attained it.
Management titles like "Managing Engineer", "District Vice President," etc. were separate. These titles were mostly held by Principal Engineers, but several of the smaller offices had Managing Engineers who were actually Senior IIs.
==========
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill
MiketheEngineer
Structural
I may be wrong here - but unless you have your PE you cannot be called any kind of "engineer". But "associate" means "junior" or "new" engineer in my opinin!!
MiketheEngineer
Structural
Won't be the first time - Lets see, IBM lost a civil lawsuit when they called their programmers computer engineers?? Go figue??
MiketheEngineer
I suggest you read the plethora of threads on the subject of PEs and industrial exemptions. In California, anyone working for an industrial company is exempt from the licensing requirement so long as their work only pertains to the business of their company.
I thought I had responded to this thread earlier, but McDonnell Douglas/Boeing had its entry level engineering position labeled as "Associate Engineer/Scientist" which is what I started with.
TTFN
faq731-376
I suggest you read the plethora of threads on the subject of PEs and industrial exemptions. In California, anyone working for an industrial company is exempt from the licensing requirement so long as their work only pertains to the business of their company.
I thought I had responded to this thread earlier, but McDonnell Douglas/Boeing had its entry level engineering position labeled as "Associate Engineer/Scientist" which is what I started with.
TTFN
faq731-376
IRstuff,
I agree, my experience also.
I also started with Associate Eng (McD D), then Engineer. The next step would have been Sr Eng, but layoff's hit us.
Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
I agree, my experience also.
I also started with Associate Eng (McD D), then Engineer. The next step would have been Sr Eng, but layoff's hit us.
Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
It doesn't take a mental giant to find an exception for just about anything. The norm (in the U.S.) is if you get a BS in Engineering from an accredited College of Engineering, you are an Engineer. Different business models/jurisdictions/government work requires none to all of their Engineers to become PEs. It's all over the map, so it depends.
Good luck,
Latexman
Good luck,
Latexman
Before all of you beat up on MikeTheEngineer too much...he's sort of right!
Most states which license engineers have clauses in their law that protects the term "Engineer". For exempt industries, it usually doesn't matter. For non-exempt professional practice, it makes a big difference. In general, you cannot hold yourself out for public practice using the title "engineer" or any variation including that term, unless you are licensed as a professional engineer. This has been flogged about in many threads.
Titles don't really mean much. "Design Engineer" or "Associate Engineer" mean something only in the confines of the company in which they are used. If you want a definition of different levels of engineers, use the definitions given by ASCE or one of the other professional societies.
Most states which license engineers have clauses in their law that protects the term "Engineer". For exempt industries, it usually doesn't matter. For non-exempt professional practice, it makes a big difference. In general, you cannot hold yourself out for public practice using the title "engineer" or any variation including that term, unless you are licensed as a professional engineer. This has been flogged about in many threads.
Titles don't really mean much. "Design Engineer" or "Associate Engineer" mean something only in the confines of the company in which they are used. If you want a definition of different levels of engineers, use the definitions given by ASCE or one of the other professional societies.
Here's a description of California's engineering licencing system. I found it on the NSPE website in a blog entry about pending legislation that would change all "title acts" to "practice acts."
"California has a unique engineering licensure system. There are three “practice act” disciplines: civil, mechanical, and electrical. These disciplines are authorized to practice engineering, and their practice is regulated by the California Board for Professional Engineers, Land Surveyors, and Geologists. Civil, mechanical, and electrical engineers can be held accountable for their professional misconduct, and their authority to practice can be suspended or revoked. There are also nine “title act” disciplines: agricultural, chemical, control systems, fire protection, industrial, metallurgical, nuclear, petroleum, and traffic engineering. In these disciplines, the state regulates the use of the title, but not the practice. In the case of misconduct, the board can revoke continued use of the title but cannot preclude continued practice. Title act engineers who commit professional misconduct can continue practicing as long as they do not continue using the title. Many state and local agencies refuse to accept documents stamped by engineers in these disciplines even though their reports are within their field of study and experience. Many fire protection and nuclear engineers, for example, are also licensed as mechanical engineers, but many of the title act engineers are not also licensed in either civil, mechanical, or electrical engineering. To make matters even more complicated, there are two “title authority acts,” for structural and geotechnical engineers, indicating proficiency in those specialties at a higher level than is required for civil engineering licensure."
I erred above when I said that "Civil", "Mechanical", and "Electrical" are protected titles. I meant to say protected practices. For a practice act engineer, both the practice and title are protected. For a title act engineer, only the title is protected. Of course, we still have industrial and governmental exemptions.
==========
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill
"California has a unique engineering licensure system. There are three “practice act” disciplines: civil, mechanical, and electrical. These disciplines are authorized to practice engineering, and their practice is regulated by the California Board for Professional Engineers, Land Surveyors, and Geologists. Civil, mechanical, and electrical engineers can be held accountable for their professional misconduct, and their authority to practice can be suspended or revoked. There are also nine “title act” disciplines: agricultural, chemical, control systems, fire protection, industrial, metallurgical, nuclear, petroleum, and traffic engineering. In these disciplines, the state regulates the use of the title, but not the practice. In the case of misconduct, the board can revoke continued use of the title but cannot preclude continued practice. Title act engineers who commit professional misconduct can continue practicing as long as they do not continue using the title. Many state and local agencies refuse to accept documents stamped by engineers in these disciplines even though their reports are within their field of study and experience. Many fire protection and nuclear engineers, for example, are also licensed as mechanical engineers, but many of the title act engineers are not also licensed in either civil, mechanical, or electrical engineering. To make matters even more complicated, there are two “title authority acts,” for structural and geotechnical engineers, indicating proficiency in those specialties at a higher level than is required for civil engineering licensure."
I erred above when I said that "Civil", "Mechanical", and "Electrical" are protected titles. I meant to say protected practices. For a practice act engineer, both the practice and title are protected. For a title act engineer, only the title is protected. Of course, we still have industrial and governmental exemptions.
==========
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill
As general as his statement is, without any specifics like type of Engineer, state/jurisdiction, industry, public/private, no mention of registered/professional, etc. one's opinion of whether it is right or wrong depends on one's perspective of said specifics. Being employed in an exempt, private industry for many years, my opinion is he is wrong as it applies to my little world. I have had no hint or fear of any legal wrongdoing whatsoever by using the title Engineer; nor do I expect any in the forseeable future. I can appreciate that someone else with a different perspective, experience and specifics would have an opinion that he is right.
Good luck,
Latexman
Good luck,
Latexman
MiketheEngineer
Structural
You say potatoe - I say patotoe. I really don't care. I am a PE and use that only when I need it.
We also have Sanitation Engineers, computer engineers and there is/was even a hair salon called "Hair Engineers" nearby. No - I didn't turn them into the state...
I think we all know what we can/cannot do and the people we work with also know!!
Matter of fact - NO ONE has ever asked to see my Engineering license - in over 30 years of practice... Ever ask your Doctor or lawyer to see a copy of his/her license?? Doubt it!!
We also have Sanitation Engineers, computer engineers and there is/was even a hair salon called "Hair Engineers" nearby. No - I didn't turn them into the state...
I think we all know what we can/cannot do and the people we work with also know!!
Matter of fact - NO ONE has ever asked to see my Engineering license - in over 30 years of practice... Ever ask your Doctor or lawyer to see a copy of his/her license?? Doubt it!!
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