What is the extent and limit of owner's engineer? 1

[delagina]

I just started working inside a plant and is considered an owner's engineer. Capital projects are done by 3rd party engineering companies and they submit the drawings to us for approval. Do I need to do comprehensive checking like request for calculations and check it line by line. Or just high level checking of drawings comparing to our standards.

 

[WARose]

The approval process (you are talking about) in a manufacturing environment is more along the lines of: Is this what we need? Can we live with this? Will our process work with this set up?

The stamping engineer/EOR of the "3rd party" is responsible for the thing working (i.e. standing up).....but it never hurts to back check them as far as calculations/dimensions go. The really good manufacturers I have worked with have sent back red lines with notes about dimensional issues and (on the calculations) disagreements on design criteria.

 

[dik]

You want to make sure you are not the 'approver'... just a reviewer. Having said that you want to coordinate all assembly/process to ensure they fit, but, you want the responsibility to rest with the consultant. If you have 'errors' on the 'shop drawings' you want to circle them in red and have the consultant review... sometimes I put the actual information with a '?'.

Ron's probably got a handful of comments on this topic.

Dik

 

[JStephen]

Ideally, you do your work, they do theirs, and there is zero overlap, and more importantly, zero gaps, between those two scopes of work.
If you're checking their work line by line and they already checked it, you have a potential waste of your time.
If you're assuming they'll check on Item X and they assume you've checked on Item X and Item X doesn't get checked, you have a potential for bigger problems.
Be especially aware of things that normally wouldn't be in their scope of work or things that require information you have and they don't.
Zoning issues, permits, fire codes, OSHA compliance of the completed facility, emissions/pollution/runoff/drainage/traffic/geotechnical, equipment loads, etc.
Also check if "our standards" are appropriate, up-to-date, etc. (Example: new OSHA ladder/ stair regulations).

 

[delagina]

So I am not being PIA to request for the calculation package to back check. We only got the drawings to approve/check. This is just issued for approval and not yet for construction. I've been on the other side where I work for the consultant engineer and usually equipment vendor drawings are not yet finalized at this stage.

 

[Ron]

Agree with dik....don't get in the approval position....be a reviewer to check agreement with your specification or contractual requirements.

What you are doing is asking the 3rd party engineer to provide "delegated engineering". That's when your group provides the parameters for the engineering and the 3rd party engineer does analysis or evaluation to meet your criteria. Your group's obligation (whether you or someone else in a similar position) is to confirm that the 3rd party engineer did the following:

1.

Understood the intent of your engineering parameters​

2.

Provided evidence in calculations, specific evaluation or a combination of the two to meet your engineering parameters​

3.

Provided a clear and logical presentation of the engineering so that you or someone on your team could logically follow the engineering analysis or evaluation without having to re-create their engineering​

You (your group) must then review the information provided and decide if it meets your criteria or not. You could then sign off with a simple "no exception taken" statement or reject the submittal with reasons for your objection. There is a big semantic difference between "approved" and "no exception taken". The difference is one of placement of responsibility. If you "approve" something, you are letting the 3rd party engineer off the hook to some degree if not all. If you "take no exception" to a submittal, you imply that you have done a cursory review of the submittal and expect the 3rd party engineer to accept full responsibility for its actions.

 

[delagina]

This drawing package was issued for client/owner approval. Civil package is just part of the entire packsge that includes piping, electrical, etc. I'm sure all the other discpline packages are also issued for approval.

 

[delagina]

But I will bring this point of no exception taken to the PM. I would think the other previous projects we had was also issued for our approval. And probabaly nobody thought much about it being different from issued for review as far as liability is concerned.

 

[delagina]

Interesting read about issued for approval vs reviewed.

http://discus.4specs.com/discus/messages/2046/2547.html?1151440459

 

[dik]

You do not want to approve... as Ron noted, review with no exceptions. If you get documents for approval, send an eMail back immediately stating that you will (or may or may not) review the documents. As soon as you step forward and start reviewing stuff, you are opening an area of liability, that you may or may not want. I've spent weeks reviewing some complex material, and simply returned the shop drawings marked 'No Exception'. I've diligently checked stuff so it works... but, that's between me and my conscience.

I've worked on projects where the client has insisted the contractor provide his quality assurance; the owner has done likewise, but, has not shared his information with the contractor.

Dik

 

[dik]

These are my Project Notes for Shopdrawings and Samples. I edit them with each project.


SHOP DRAWINGS AND SAMPLES

CONTRACTOR SHALL PREPARE A LIST OF SUBMISSIONS

REFER TO GENERAL NOTES FOR PARTS OF THE WORK THAT REQUIRE SHOP DRAWINGS/SAMPLES. ALLOW 2 WEEKS FOR REVIEW FOR EACH COMPONENT U/N

SUBMIT SHOP DRAWINGS/SAMPLES WELL IN ADVANCE OF DELIVERY

SUBMIT SHOP DRAWINGS/SAMPLES TO THE [OWNER | CONSULTANT | ENGINEER]

SHOP DRAWINGS SHALL BE SUBMITTED AS THEY ARE PREPARED. UNLESS PRIOR ARRANGEMENTS ARE MADE, DUE TO SCHEDULING DEMANDS, ETC. THE [OWNER | CONSULTANT | ENGINEER] CANNOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR DELAYS CAUSED BY THE RECEIPT A LARGE NUMBER OF SHOP DRAWINGS IN A SHORT TIME PERIOD

CONTRACTOR SHALL ALLOW AND SCHEDULE FOR TWO WEEKS FOR [OWNER | CONSULTANT | ENGINEER] TO REVIEW EACH SUBMITTED SHOP DRAWING/SAMPLE

ELEVATIONS AND DIMENSIONS USED SHALL BE THE SAME AS THE CONSTRUCTION DOCUMENTS U/N

SHOP DRAWINGS SHALL SHOW ALL MATERIALS AND DESIGN, FABRICATION, CONSTRUCTION, FASTENING, AND FINISHING DETAILS AS REQ'D

SHOP DRAWINGS SHALL IDENTIFY ALL VARIATIONS FROM THE CONSTRUCTION DOCUMENTS

THE CONTRACTOR SHALL SUBMIT 1 SET OF SHOP DRAWINGS IN DIGITAL FORMAT PRIOR TO FABRICATION FOR THE [OWNER | CONSULTANT | ENGINEER]'S REVIEW. SUBMIT SHOP DRAWINGS FOR THE FOLLOWING WORK U/N:
-CHAIN LINK FENCING
-COLD FORMED METAL FRAMING
-CONCRETE FORMWORK
-CONCRETE POUR SCHEDULE INCLUDING ALL CONSTRUCTION/CONTROL JOINTS
-FACTORY FABRICATED WOOD TRUSSES
-FIBRE REINFORCED PLASTIC COMPONENTS
-LONG SPAN STEEL TRUSS
-METAL FABRICATIONS
-METAL SIDING
-OPEN WEB STEEL JOISTS
-PRECAST CONCRETE ELEMENTS
-PRECAST CONCRETE PAVERS
-REINFORCING STEEL
-ROOFING
-STEEL BUILDING SYSTEM (ALL COMPONENTS)
-STEEL FLOOR DECK
-STEEL ROOF DECK
-STRUCTURAL STEEL
-WOOD GLUED LAMINATED PRODUCTS
-WOOD 'I' JOISTS

SHOP DRAWINGS SUBMITTED SHALL BE DESIGNED AND SEALED BY AN ENGINEER REGISTERED IN THE PROVINCE OF THE WORK U/N

PRIOR TO REVIEW BY OUR OFFICE, SHOP DRAWINGS/SAMPLES MUST BE REVIEWED AND COORDINATED BY THE CONTRACTOR. THEY MUST BEAR A REVIEW STAMP, DATE AND SIGNATURE SIGNIFYING HIS ACKNOWLEDGEMENT THAT HIS RESPONSIBILITIES INCLUDE:
-DIMENSIONS WHICH SHALL BE CONFIRMED AND COORDINATED WITH JOB SITE CONDITIONS,
-INFORMATION THAT PERTAINS SOLELY TO FABRICATION PROCESSES, MEANS, METHODS, TECHNIQUES, SEQUENCES AND PROCEDURES OF CONSTRUCTION,
-SAFETY PRECAUTIONS AND PROGRAMS IN CONNECTION WITH THE WORK,
-COORDINATION OF THE WORK WITH THAT OF ALL OTHER TRADES
-SATISFACTORY PERFORMANCE OF THE WORK

SHOP DRAWINGS NOT BEARING A REVIEW STAMP IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE ABOVE MAY BE RETURNED

SHOP DRAWINGS FOR NON-STRUCTURAL COMPONENTS WHICH MAY IMPACT THE BUILDING STRUCTURE SHALL BE REVIEWED BY THE [OWNER | CONSULTANT | ENGINEER]

SHOP DRAWING/SAMPLE REVIEW BY THE [OWNER | CONSULTANT | ENGINEER] IS ONLY FOR THE LIMITED PURPOSE OF CHECKING FOR CONFORMANCE WITH THE INFORMATION GIVEN IN THE CONSTRUCTION DOCUMENTS. REVIEW IS NOT CONDUCTED FOR THE PURPOSE OF DETERMINING THE ACCURACY OR COMPLETENESS SUCH AS DIMENSIONS OR QUANTITIES

It's important the last paragraph is included in your drawing note or specifications. I tend to rely on drawing notes over specifications, but, if specs, they are coordinated with the notes. I've encountered too many projects 20 or 30 years down the road with drawings and no specifications.

Same goes with project calculations. The supplier should be aware that these are for project records, and, will not be reviewed.

Dik

 

[CCox]

Delagina,

I have been on both sides of this coin. Right now, I am a consulting engineer doing structural work for multiple Wood Products Manufacturing Companies. I used to be an engineering manager for a Wood Products Company and I routinely designed buildings, equipment supports, monorail and bridge cranes, oil/water separators, stormwater/processed water ponds, etc. Projects that actually required to be permitted and needed a PE stamp. I did perform design reviews of third party engineers and actually value engineered their work for civil/structural areas I am competent in. I worked closely with these engineers and they provided the stamp on the changes that were made. I had their calculations for review.

I also managed capital projects that were outside of my realm of engineering technical experience. Anything requiring high or low voltage work or boiler/steam/condensate work, I did not perform design reviews on.

Manufacturing is really a grey area. In OR, WA, ID where the mills are located where I worked, those states do not require a PE stamp on a great deal of engineering design if the design work is done in house, for in house purposes only. This does not apply for consultants providing their professional services.

For your consultants, you should have a professional services agreement, just like you would have a construction agreement with your contractor. They should carry single incident and multiple aggregate insurance.

I didn't worry too much about approval vs. review. I do know that every capital I worked on required equipment and/or designs be approved for fabrication. Manufacturer's won't do anything unless you approve their drawings for fabrication. Ultimately, the responsibility falls on the owner (you). Your boss will at least think that, and it will be your neck on the line when the 10 day facility outage is happening and there is a serious problem because of design/review oversights.

 

[SlideRuleEra]

I just started working inside a plant and am considered an owner's engineer.

Are you an employee of the Owner?
In that case, for technical purposes you are the Owner.
or
Working under a contract or as a temporary for the Owner?
In these situations you represent the Owner.

My advice will differ, depending on the answer.

http://www.SlideRuleEra.net

http://www.VacuumTubeEra.net