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What is the most widely used software for Composites design?

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Tetragrammaton

Tetragrammaton

Aerospace
Nov 27, 2002
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Hi All,

I am looking to move over into the field of composites design.

Background for the last ~20yrs has been as a Product Design Engineer in Automotive and Aerospace disciplines. Primarily with a heavy focus on high end cad like Unigraphics NX, Catia v4 & v5 and also IDEAS.

So I would be greatful if those with the experience in the industry would give me the benefit of their experience/knowledge.

As I would like to strengthen my design skills and move into a more challenging, innovative field; I would like know what is the dominant/preferred design software in the composites field.

Which I realise at first is a rather ambiguous question so let me clarify where I would like to focus. In the automotive sector I see it covers exterior/interior panels/fascia and to some extent structural brackets etc.

On the aerospace side I see it covers like wings, fuselage and interior dressings. However I am not entirely sure to what extent it goes in the aerospace industry....?

What I would be interested to know is what software the big OEM's in both the Aerospace and Automotive industries use.

I do see that from initial searches that VISTAGY's FIBERSIM seem to be coming up alot and I that it intergrates with most high end cad software (UG NX, Catia & Pro E).

I think there must be more, I am just not seeing what there is...?

So perhaps those with more insight would be kind enough to give a fellow design practioner a steer in the right direction?

Best Regards

Tetragrammaton :)
 
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Hi Brian,

Thanks for the reply.

I had not thought that far though I did realise that FiberSIM is incorporated into CAD packages.

I wonder if FiberSIM is/can be used as a standalone package also, I sort of presume it is intended to be used in conjunction with another (CAD) package?

Do you know if the training for FiberSIM is $$$$ expensive? I sort of have an expectation that it will be given that it is relatively unique it seems thus far? I don't rightly know since I yet have no basis for comparison.

Last thought is; are there standalone Composite design packages? Might sound odd but i don't entirely know how they work or what functionality they provide hence the questions

I expect they provide functionality like organising your plies(if that is that right phrase) and creating flat patterns, from a composite novices view point :)

Thanks in advance for the info thus far.

Best Regards

Tetragrammaton :)
 
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We used FiberSim and NX. I don't think FiberSim is available as a stand-alone package.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - [small]Robert Hunter[/small]
 
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Hi All,

ESPcomposites -thanks for your reply.

ewh - thanks also for your reply..... I don't think that FiberSIM is available as a standalone package either. Just out of curiosity, what sort of components do you do design work for with NX and FiberSIM? Especially since I have been a long time user of Unigraphics NX. Though I have noticed that FiberSIM and Catia seems to be coming up when I do searches, I have not yet seen it linked to NX.

Hansmeister - Perhaps to clarify better, I am interested to know what software is used for composites from a design point of view, not so much from analysis side. Though I am realising that analysis is a large part of the design part of working with composites. I also realise that composites design seems to involve a third party software (EG FiberSIM) that is intergarted with a CAD package and not done with any standalone software.

So I think that my question is partly answered. As I see it that FiberSIM seems to be the main software package used for composites design. Also that it is generally used in conjunction with CAD packages like Catia, Unigraphics NX and Pro Engineer.

Hopefully someone may add further to the discussion telling of another package used in composites design; either standalone or intergrated.

Best Regards

Tetragrammaton :)
 
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Here is the basic flow where I work.

The geometry for composite parts is typically just the surfacing package of your CAD program (Catia GSD). The analysis is then performed in some CAE package (Ansys) and the actual layup and stacking sequence is determined. This information is then fed back to the designer who will use fibersim do define each ply for purposes of flat-pattern output to a gerber.

Fibersim is just a piece of the pie, and I would not necessarily call it "design" software like CAD is design software. You do not use it do define geometries.

As for others, Catia also has a separate workbench for composites that behaves very similarly to fibersim. Honestly I like it a little bit better.

If you want to be a designer of composite parts, make sure you keep your surfacing skills up. That is 90% of the task of the designer.

Wes C.
------------------------------
No trees were killed in the sending of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
 
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Hi wes616,

Thnaks for the great overview that really puts it into better perspective.
I think I had some idea it worked something along these lines but not having done it first hand, was not completely sure.
I can understand what you are saying about FiberSIM not being strictly speaking 'design' software......
The I guess the question is, what is the real strength selling point where FiberSIM out-performs or 'out-does' (bad grammar I know, but hope you follow) anything else? :)
It strikes me that if you can do a reasonable job in the Catia Workbench (or Unigraphics NX) for example then what do you gain from FiberSIM?
As for surfacing skills, as far as Unigraphics .....well OK NX now, I'm a little older and started using it back at version 9 so it's still UG to me.
Sorry I digress, in NX I have been surfacing an absolute ton, like a solid 5-10years doing interior automotive plastic design, heavily freeform surfacing. So when it comes to freeform I think I can make the grade (not trying to blow my own trumpet too much) but I think I could handle anything thrown at me without any headaches.
Nevertheless I appreciate you reply which was insightful. It does make me wonder about FiberSIM though and especially when I see jobs being advertised saying composites experience an advantage (I do realise this could cover a whole host of composites not just PMC/FRP but MMC and CMC as well) but it makes me think alot.

Many thanks once again nice to also hear from someone in the industry doing it hands on. :)


Best Regards

Tetragrammaton :)
 
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We used NX to design and manufacture various aerospace components, from fairings to engine vanes. FiberSim was more useful on the larger pieces.
I have to disagree with you, wes. FiberSim may not be used to define the resulting part geometry, but it is used to design the shape of the individual plies that make up that part. You could just use the surface geometry of the native file if composite materials didn't have a tendency to lie differently, depending on composition and direction. This is an example of the complexities involved in composite part definition. Another is part numbering... each individual ply has to be accounted for, and one part number doesn't begin to cover it. ;-)


"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - [small]Robert Hunter[/small]
 
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Tetragrammaton -
Some good advice provided by others. It sounds like you will be more on the design side than the analysis side of things. The process I am familiar with is similar to what Wes616 describes.

The is one additional area of the D&A process that occurs with the composite engineers I have worked with - finding a starting point for the laminate stacking sequence. Usually, a CLT (Classic Lamination Theory) approach gives a good starting point for the lamina(s) and orientations to be used. CLT is basically a collection of stress and deformation hypotheses. CLT tools are a closed form approach (as apposed to an FEA approach) and are relatively quick and easy.

My company provides one of several CLT tools available (or you could build your own) to assist the process. Helius:CompositePro ( allows you to understand how particular laminates will behave under certain loading conditions.

Once design geometry and a good starting point for your laminate are determined, the analysis people take over and iterate on the composite structure.

This isn't meant to be a sales-ey post; I just wanted to let you know there are some tools available to help the designer with their structure. Please let me know if I can elaborate on any of this. My company also plays extensively on the finite element analysis side of things specific only to composites.

Regards,
Jason
Firehole Technologies
 
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Hi Tetragrammaton,

I use Helius:CompositePro and have found it to be more useful than the less expensive (and less functional) CLT software packages mentioned. CompositePro allows you to design beyond just a laminated plate, items like beams, sandwich panels, and pressure vessels. It also comes with a material data library which is invaluable at times. I'm actually quite surprised you have not heard of CompositePro as it is one of the most widely used preliminary design products I know of. In my opinion, you use CompositePro to develop an initial design, then move onto FEA to finalize details, and finally you end with FiberSim (if you can afford it) to finalize the manufacturing details.

Regards,
-CompositeModeler
 
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CompositeModeler,

I have been meaning to get around to looking at CompositePro and just had a look. There really is not much to address real failure.

Generally speaking, failure typically occurs at the site of holes, fastened joints, compression after impact, etc. How are you doing even preliminary analysis with CompositePro?

Are you using the FEM as a loads model only or to do detail analysis as well?


Brian
 
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ESPcomposites,

CompositePro is great for initial sizing and for determining far field failure initiation and propagation. For detail work I use hand-calculations and FEA to finish the design/analysis off. Hand-Calculations for quick failure initiation load checks and FEA for determining how the local failures propagate into catastrophic global failures...that's where the fun comes in!

Regards,
-CM
 
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Hello!,
I run FEMAP & NX NASTRAN for composite (please note I am both end user and VAR as well) as an integrated environment for finite element analysis. Also, there is available an add-on module named "Composites Modeler for Femap" that runs seamlessly inside of FEMAP developed by Simulayt Ltd. (see
Best regards,
Blas.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Blas Molero Hidalgo
Ingeniero Industrial
Director

IBERISA
48011 BILBAO (SPAIN)
WEB:
 
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Fibersim is the best option for laminate design. It is simple to use, robust and has many design options and optimization tools. There also good piece of software offered by ESI Group and widely used in the aeronautical industry.

For analysis, Patran is largely used in industry (Nastran and Ansys too). However, you will be surprised to see the aeronautical industry still use their own "design receipts" programmed in Excel sheets.

For advanced non-linear composite design (which is now ongoing in most high-end companies), Patran and Ansys seem to take the lead.


 
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