What is the value of a Benefits plan? 5

[rjgoebel]

I am in the boat of not being sure how important a benefits plan is, how much the things are going to cost me if I cannot get one in my work, and if I need to be searching for a job where benefits are present.

I am fresh out of school and am now 'technically' working as an independent contractor. As in, I am getting paid as a consultant or self-employed individual. I am pretty new to all of this and feel as though I have been thrown in with the sharks. In some respects I am weary that my employer is taking advantage of me as a good young EE with not much experience with the monetary side of consulting.

I have estimated my salary (although it is VERY rough at this point) after working here for about a month and a half. It is comparable to the starting salaries of those graduating from Rose-Hulman with me in EE. But, I am not recieving a benefits package because I am not an employee. In addition, my taxes are not being withheld by my employer because I have been labelled as a consultant, independent contractor, and self-employed. This means I have to bear the brunt of health insurance, dental plan, etc, etc. Problem is, I really am enjoying my job here in forensics as an EE but I am worried that something fishy is going on.

Anyone care to opine on the benefits thing?

 

[ctopher]

rjgoebel, some benefits laws also depend where you are located, country/state. Something to look into.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

 

[IRstuff]

Note also, by failing to have Federal taxes witheld, YOU are liable for any tax penalties. YOU will be potentially liable for alternative minimum tax, which is nasty. AND, you may be liable for prepayment of estimated taxes the following year.

YOU need to get in touch with a tax professional and/or lawyer ASAP.

TTFN

 

[Beggar]

It seems like PE's have the ability to demand a lot more money when consulting than do non-PE's. In fact I am very uncertain about the ability of non-PE's to offer valuable consulting at all (or the perception of that fact in the field).

Just to be crystal clear: The PE issue is not one of perception nor the ability to make additional money -- it's the law in every state of the US and province of Canada.

You CANNOT, by law, perform engineering services nor represent yourself as an engineer to clients without a license. Yes, there is an industrial exemption available that lets folks like me work in an engineering capacity for my company, but I cannot be hired out nor represented to be an engineer beyond the bounds of my employer.

There's nothing to be uncertain about -- you cannot legally provide consulting services without the license. Period.

--------------------
Bring back the HP-15

http://www.hp15c.org

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[rjgoebel]

How does a consulting firm attract good young engineers to work as consultants when those young engineers realistically are not offering any services to the company until they have their PE ?

ie: Me. I can help out around the office but I don't actually REALLY contribute until I am out interacting with clients and have the ability to really act like an expert/authority on things. And that doesn't come until my PE comes. Do I want less pay than other EE's with no benefits to stick it out until I get my PE?

I do enjoy the field, but what kind of hit can I afford to take to do something I enjoy on pay/benefits?

Jim Goebel,
Electrical Engineer
Mid-West Forensics, Inc.

 

[IRstuff]

I'm not following. Have you signed up to take your EIT exam? As an EIT, you should be able to do most of the things you are asking about, under the appropriate supervision of a PE. No one expects you to immediately be a PE, but there is a process that should be well documented in your state's website for licensed engineers.

Your original question about benefits is unrelated to what you or your company offers as services. Your company appears to be taking advantage of the fact that you don't have license and appear to not be involved in getting a license.

A reputable and forward thinking company would have already been pushing you to get started on your PE. To be doing otherwise speaks volumes.

TTFN

 

[rjgoebel]

Oh, I already passed my FE/EIT just as I was getting my degree ( 2 months ago). We have talked about my getting my PE and that is a top priority.



Jim Goebel,
Electrical Engineer
Mid-West Forensics, Inc.

 

[vooter]

"How does a consulting firm attract good young engineers to work as consultants when those young engineers realistically are not offering any services to the company until they have their PE ?"

They usually don't hire any engineer without experience. Translated, the consulting firms don't usually hire anyone without a P.E.

Your question is, "where they heck do we get the experience, then?"

An answer might be found in the rules for taking the P.E., i.e., you need twelve years' worth of experience (meaning four years working after the BS) in order to qualify to take the exam.

Those first four years (and maybe more) should be considered an apprenticeship. Yeah, I know that you have to make money, have to pay back them student loans, etc...

 

[whyun]

vooter,

In California, many established firms do hire recent graduates. Established firms usually have key staff engineers that are licensed and the firm may utilize the recent graduates under the licensed project engineer/managers' supervision.

Typically salary for the recent graduates isn't very high. It may go up about 10% per year for the first few years. Once licensed, there is a significant jump. Switching firm at this point will bring another significant jump (do this only if your company is not loyal to you as you were to the company).

 

[Beggar]

(do this only if your company is not loyal to you as you were to the company).

I would say, "Do this only if it's in your best interests. Don't believe for a second that the company has any loyalty toward you beyond your ability to do the work they want for as little pay as possible."



--------------------
Bring back the HP-15

http://www.hp15c.org

--------------------

 

[EddyC]

rjgoebel,

Are you or are you not an employee of Mid-West Forensics? If you are, then you don't have to be a PE as long as someone above you is. But if you are not an employee and are an outside entity (subconsultant to a consultant), then you definitely need to have a PE to do engineering for them or for anyone. The states define the "public" as any person or entity outside of your business entity. You need to find out your legal employment status ASAP. And don't expect your boss to care about this kind of thing. Because if someone reports you to the state and they determine that you are an independent business entity and should have your PE license, you will be in trouble.

 

[rjgoebel]

EddyC,
I wish I could answer that question right now. I am trying to negotiate that I AM an employee of Mid-West right now. I cannot really accomplish too much as an independent contractor because like you are saying, I am not allowed legally to practice engineering as one unless I have my PE. Plus, there are all kinds of associated penalties it seems, like added taxes into social security.

My boss has said all kinds of things like my billable hours, what he calls commision, is not within his bounds to withhold because it is commision. Someone earlier on this thread already discounted that because commision is counted the same as salary for tax purposes.

Another issue is that there isn't a PE at our company. When I am working with PE's they are from another (not ours) forensics company around the state. And more often than not, they are representing a different client. Is this going to be a problem? Do I need to be studying directly underneath a PE to be gaining experience towards getting my PE?

 

[Rich2001]

Do I need to be studying directly underneath a PE to be gaining experience towards getting my PE?

That depends on your state laws.

Vita sine litteris mors est.

 

[EddyC]

If your employer is engaging in engineering, there MUST be a PE on staff. You need to determine if the work that they (and you) are doing is considered engineering by the state. Also find out if your employer (Mid-West Forensics) has a Certificate Of Authorization with the state (Essentially permission by the state to do engineering). You can look this type of thing up by going to the state engineering board website. Go to

http://www.ncees.org

and click on Licensing Boards.

 

[SlideRuleEra]

Jim - This is IMPORTANT. You are getting good & consistent advice from numerous Eng-Tips members who know what they are talking about. You are on the verge of BIG trouble for several reasons. Look (below) at the "homework" that I have done for you:

Is this your employer?

http://in.allpages.com/indianapolis/professional/law-enforcement-professional/

If so, seach here, on that name (pasted into the "Facility Name" block

https://extranet.in.gov/WebLookup/Search.aspx?facility=Y

You will see that your firm has exactly One (1) Indiana professional license - as a "Private Detective Agency"

If the above is accurate, for time last time (from me) - go see a lawyer - what your are discussing in this Eng-Tips thread is like "rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic" compared to what can (and probably will) happen to you - if you do nothing.

http://www.SlideRuleEra.net

 

[Beggar]

I don't mean this to keep adding fuel to the fire but recognize the urgency of what SlideRuleEra is telling you.

In assessing civil liability (& degree of criminal culpability), one of the critical issues is knowledge. Before this thread, you honestly didn't know the situation. Now you do. That means that your burden is substantially higher.

It sounds as though your employer is breaking both state and federal law and that you are violating your state's PE statutes.

Beyond the civil liability and penalties you face for practicing sans license, recognize that you are also jeopardizing your ability to get a license at all by knowingly working in violation of the PE statute.

Do as the man (I presume) says: go see an attorney.

--------------------
Bring back the HP-15

http://www.hp15c.org

--------------------

 

[rjgoebel]

Thanks for the input everyone. I am going to either: be an employee (not an independent contractor), or not work here anymore. It's that simple. I never realized the implications of all of this but thanks for the input, and this will get straightened out in the next 2 days.

 

[EddyC]

Even if you become a full fledged employee, there still needs to be a PE at your employer's firm (and I don't mean at your employer's client's firm). Unless this condition is met, you are still not in compliance with state engineering laws and could still get in trouble.

 

[weh3]

rj:

The advice from this forum seems to be for you to get out of the situation. Your transition from ignorance to enlightenment is obvious as one reads through it, but now that you are no longer ignorant, you can't just wait to see what happens. Make a copy of this discussion--it names names and names places, and it may have some value as a CYA document.

William

 

[toiap]

Here is my input. I know I will probably raise some heated debate, but here goes:

I do strongly agree with the PE issue and licensure . However, in forensics you are not performing engineering design that affects public safety. I would not get all nervous about breaking laws; at least in New York where I am, I know people working in this field without PE's. Indiana may be different.

I worked for a short time in this field, and as long as the lawyers/clients are aware of your credentials and are ok with that, you should be ok. You are offering your services as an expert witness, not a PE. A PE certainly gives you more credibility, no matter what your chosen field. And yes, in some instances it is required.

The forensic field is often filled with semi-retired and part time engineers that have other full time jobs. As such, you will find that many firms do not offer benefits. Also, they typically pay the employees based on their billable hours (i.e. they do not get a salary). I suspect this is how you are being handled. If you are young and can afford to work this way for now, over time you will most likely build your reputation and client base and will make good money, with flexibility not seen in a more traditional business. I do suggest that if you stay in your current job that you do get some basic health insurance and start saving for retirement.

However, if you are interested in gaining some other experience, it certainly is helpful in the forensic field. As an expert witness, it certainly is valuable to state that you have designed, installed, and maintained equipment. You can always do forensics on a part time basis as described above.

This brings me to the next point - be careful what you say to your employer. You never want to burn any bridges. You never know where life will take you. Also, be careful what you say until you have a job lined up. The last thing you want is to have burned bridges and not have a back-up job.

Good luck.

 

[EddyC]

I disagree. If what you and your employer are doing is classified as engineering, then both of you are required to be in compliance with state law, regardless of whether public safety is affected by the work in question. Contact the state board. Let them decide if what you are doing is engineering or not and whether you need to be in compliance with state law.