What should EITs be doing? 9

[Grubbyky]

In some of the postings, it sounds like young engineering interns (like myself) don't know their heads from their back-sides. What experiences should EITs be seeking out in order to become a competent engineer?

Also, the general opinion seems to be that engineering schools seem to be inadequate. Should EITs be seeking further education. Most of my senior level classes were also graduate classes, so I don't think it would provide a very different experience other than a large research project.

 

[swivel63]

no, EIT's should be seeking further experience. academia isn't sufficient enough to make someone a good engineer. the longer i'm in this business, the less i realize that i know.

 

[JAE]

It's the quality of the PE's you are learning under that matter most...that and the projects they are working on with you.

 

[UcfSE]

I would say that while I agree with JAE that the PE you under matters quite a bit, how much you learn yourself is up to you, so I think your motivation to learn is what matters the most.

Your knowledge is up to you and how hard you are willing to work. Never stop desiring to be better than you are. When you're at the EI level it isn't hard to find things you don't know. Pick something you don't know, perhaps something you need to learn for an upcoming project, and study for a few hours everynight after work until you know it. After a couple years you'll notice yourself pull ahead of others, including PE's, who waited for knowledge to come to them and shorted themselves. Keep in mind that the letters "PE" behind your name in themselves only mean you have the minimum competance to pass a test. What you know is your decision and in your power.

 

[JAE]

UcfSE - very nice. Good points.

 

[FOETS]

Milk and 2 sugars please

 

[KENAT]

FOETS, I nearly said similar but thought it might be rude.

Somwhat simplistic but perhaps worth saying, as an EIT shouldn't you be working toward your PE?

 

[gerhardl]

We once had a 1. year engineering student group interviewing all engineers in our company to answer a given case study 'to describe the engineers role'.

Among other things the survey gave the result that the 2 most experienced engineers, which also incidentally had the highest education level, independently from each other stressed the importance of asking questions when you did not know enough to solve the cases given to you.

.. None of the others highlighted the importance of searching for information and asking for help in the same way.

In my opinion you have already started on the right track, but you will actually need all sorts of new input all the way,- its no end to it. And that is - as the student group concluded - being a good and experienced engineer.

 

[csd72]

Grubbyky,

Further study at this stage will just make you an academic, it is learning to apply that knowledge in a professional environment that makes you an engineer.

In fact the attitude in Australia is that those with postgraduate degrees are actually less employable because the additional study makes them more academic than practical. This is not necessarily the case in the US however.

In your first couple of years you should ask lots of questions, but try not to ask the same question twice.

When you are doing a new and different project,ask for example drawings of a similar project. This will save you having to reinvent the wheel and will show you the type and level of detail that you have to go into.

Get a book to write down notes on everything you have been taught, keep copies of your interesting calculations. This will help you avoid having to ask the same question again.

For new areas, try to read some relevant articles on the topic so that you have a better understanding before you start.

Most importantly, when you get a new project, the first thing you should do is sit down and formulate a set of questions to ensure that you understand the project correctly. Only after you have done this should you actually start the design.

 

[moltenmetal]

EITs- do us all a favour and get a job where people both design AND build stuff. If you have a choice, DON'T go straight into consulting out of school! That should be strictly verboten in my books. A really good engineer can survive early abuse in the consulting industry without too much brain damage, but I've seen plenty more good kids who end up giving our profession a bad name when they go this route. The truly good consultants have years of experience in the real world, not just a few extended site visits. You can learn from these folks, but you probably won't get a fair chance- and it's far easier and more effective to learn this stuff physically, viscerally- by seeing and doing.

More book learning ain't a-gonna teach you nutting! Put a moratorium on courses for credit for a few years after graduation!

Get your backside out into the real world and calibrate your commonsense- that's what you're missing. Build your conceptual understanding by seeing the consequences of design decisions in the physical world rather than in the land of paper drawings, CAD models and calculations. You've been living in the land of abstraction for too long, coming right out of school. Remember that engineering is APPLIED science!

Oh yeah, and work with some engineers who are doing the same! Talk with them- ask questions. Listen to their stories. But don't stop with just the engineers when you're looking for mentors and people to learn from. Tradesmen, designers, techies- even bean counters and lowly sales reps- everybody has something to teach you if you're humble and curious enough to learn. That is, if engineering school hasn't pounded whatever honest enthusiasm and curiosity out of you that you may have had left after high school was through with you!

Good luck- and a star to you for asking a good question!

 

[JAE]

"That is, if engineering school hasn't pounded whatever honest enthusiasm and curiosity out of you that you may have had left after high school was through with you!
"

moltenmetal - sounds like you may have had a rough go back there in school.

 

[KENAT]

You mean it's not normal to feel like that? I'll admit by the time I'd finished Uni the last thing on my mind was more academic study.

As to the OP, asking questions is a good idea, even better though (at least sometimes) is to really think through the problem and do a little research before you ask for assistance. Being able to at least sometimes say "I was thinking of doing it like this, does that sound right" is probably better than consistently just asking what to do.

Of course sometimes it's more efficient/faster/safer to ask the question rather than trying to work it out, but try and mix it up a little.

Also try and get as wide a range of experience as possible, not sure exactly what that might be for civil/environmental but I'd guess spending time on the design side, analysis side and out in the field. This will not only make you more well rounded & understand how other departments/sections/roles work but may give you a window into what area, if any, you want to specialize in.

 

[Senselessticker]

A few things that come to mind relative to the OP question:

1. Understand that you are a problem solver, not an order taker.

2. Always dig as deep as you can in order to gain the best understanding possible of the task before you.

3. The more fundamental the concept, the more important it is to master.

4. Use your "young blood" knowledge to innovate ideas and solutions, and don't trust a senior engineer if they say "because its always been done that way".

5. If you don't understand "how" a particular systems or component functions, spend as much time possible trying to understand it.

6. NEVER take someone's advice and trust it. If someone gives you advice/direction, thank them, and then personally verify that the solution "works" and is the most effective.

7. Attempt to completely understand the problem before trying to design a solution.

8. PE's are much more likely to give you room to grow as an engineer. An "engineer" who's not a PE is most likely not concerned about your future as an engineer and will use you like a work horse rather than an innovative problem solver.

9. Try to stay up with new technology as it becomes available. Probe the minds of "youngsters" for help "new stuff" They problably know more about the new technology than you do.

10. Your education taught you "how to think", it did not equip you with answers to problems.

You will be "one of the old guys" before you know it!!!

 

[moltenmetal]

I had a GREAT school experience- principally because it was co-operative. The combination of academic learning with real-world work experience is unbeatable. As good as mine was in many ways, my time in school was also full of arbitrary obstacles, unnecessary stress, and a surprising number of memorably HORRIBLE, incompetent educators who were certainly not in the business of teaching kids to become functional engineers- hell, these folks not only had no idea what a real engineer did for a living, but they didn't give a rat's @ss about the kids they were teaching in any way whatsoever.

The LAST thing I'd recommend to an EIT is more formal schooling!

School in general is characterized as much by boredom and arbitrariness as it is by opportunities for learning. The systematic nature of formal for-credit education, plus the social dynamics of the classroom, conspire to stultify the natural curiosity and eagerness to learn that most kids come by innately- at least until they're about ten years old and discover being "cool"...it's a problem that's very tough to overcome.

After four plus years in engineering school, these kids need to DO something. Their principal problem is not a lack of knowledge (though that too can be lacking depending on their school)- rather, what's left of their commonsense has very little calibration based on real-world experience. THAT'S what they need, and they won't get it in a classroom!

 

[Grubbyky]

Thank you all very much for your input.

I have been working for a large materials company that doesn't employ any engineers. We hire consultants for design work- I'm careful about not over-stepping my bounds, and any design work I do goes to one of our consultants.

I don't think the state board will recognize experience from my current job, but I am learning infinitely more in my current position than I was learning for a short time that I worked for a consulting firm. It seems like the state board of technical professions encourages 1 yr. of experience four times. In this state, as a civil engineering intern, job opportunities directly under a PE are limited to consulting firms and state agencies.

Thank you all again for all of your input. I have felt fairly isolated from engineers, and this forum has helped me keep on the right track mentally.

 

[pittsig]

Grubbyky,

There has been lots of good advice posted previously so I will try not to rehash too much.

It sounds like you may need to change employers at some point to gain experience relevant to obtaining a PE license, but your experience can be valuable nonetheless. Generally the licensing boards want to see 4 or more years of progressively responsible experience under a PE, not 1 year of experience four times, but I suppose it can feel that way.

I agree with Moltenmetal - whenver possible, for as long as possible, get out in the field, get your boots dirty, and see how things get constructed in the real world vs. what's shown on the plans.

Hang around those old-timers and pick their brains - the grizzled inspectors, superintendents, and foremen, as well as the draftsmen & technicians. You may have to take a few orders, buy coffee, or go look for a plan stretcher. Be a good sport, do it with respect and humility, and you'll earn their respect and they will readily share their knowledge. Some will share whether you want their opinion or not. You can learn something from everyone, but you will soon learn who has what's worth learning.

You'll need to demonstrate your competence, and the ability to apply what they have taught you in order to keep their respect. Stand your ground when you know you are correct, but don't embarrass them in front of others.

Also try to find an experienced PE (with real world experience as well) to act as a mentor. If there's not one at your place of employment, try the local Branch/Section of ASCE, NSPE, or other professional organization.

Communication skills will be vital as your career advances. Based on your posts, you appear to have a good grasp on written communication - spelling, punctuation, not writing in text message jargon, etc. Be consistent in that regard.

With respect to verbal communication, if your current position doesn't give you the opportunity to make presentations to small and large groups, then find another venue where you can gain that experience. Possibilities again include local professional organizations (ASCE, NSPE, etc) plus civic organizations such as Kiwanis, Rotary, Toasmasters, etc. These organizations also can help you fill voids in your experience, help the community, and gain leadership experience you wouldn't normally obtain in the first few years out of college.

Good luck!

 

[regalia]

Quoting Moltenmetal:
"If you have a choice, DON'T go straight into consulting out of school!"

I have done two intersnhips in engineering consulting. I agree with you completely, but many graduating engineers don't really have a choice. Traditional industry seem to hire less university students every year and consulting hires more. No doubt this is reflective of the current state of certain industries themselves: America's largest chemical manufacturer duPont had ~150,000 employees in 1995 and now they have ~60,000.

Engineers in industry (and in this thread) seem to blame academia for the deteriorating quality of engineers, however i think it is fairly clear to me that it is instead the engineers in industry who really dropped the ball. I think there are plenty of eager and capable engineers out there wanting to learn, but industry will cry shortage in search of their '10-pound butterfly' that some other company paid to train.

It is my plan desire to work for an integrated energy company like Chevron, Exxon, or ConocoPhillips after graduating....but given hiring trends it is looking more likely that I'll end up on the Fluor, Bechtel, or CH2M Hill side of industry.

 

[Grubbyky]

FOETS,

Regular or decaf? Also, would you care for a bagel along with that?

If a request for coffee is the most rude thing I get in a day, it's a good day. Construction contractors in this town sometimes resort to physical violence; good thing I played (American) football in college.

 

[moltenmetal]

regalia: Correct- I was implying a choice which is not afforded to many grads. Getting a job in consulting is better for an EIT than getting a job as an Excel monkey in some accounting or management consulting firm!

Consider this factor as well: a reason that the consultants are hiring more and the firms themselves are hiring fewer is that the firms are out-sourcing their work to the CONSULTANTS! That way, when the work's not there, they simply don't let the contracts. No layoffs, no severance pay etc.- on their side, at least. But most of the work didn't just disappear or move offshore- much of it has moved to a subcontractor somewhere.

Who has "dropped the ball" here? In Canada it's the engineering profession itself. We have made ZERO effort to match the supply of engineers to marketplace demand. We're silent or even complicit while industry screams "shortage!" to keep their workforce "flexible" (i.e. oversupplied, willing to take anything that's handed to them). By all measures I've seen, we have a far poorer utilization of engineering grads and immigrants in ENGINEERING WORK than the US does. And we are making ZERO effort as a profession to deal with it.

 

[csd72]

Moltenmetal,

Interesting point. In Australia, they surveyed employers to find out which jobs were apparently in the most shortage due to placements not being filled. The two branches of engineering that came out on top (i.e. most shortage) were structural and civil consulting, which were also the lowest paid!