What should EITs be doing? 9

[Grubbyky]

In some of the postings, it sounds like young engineering interns (like myself) don't know their heads from their back-sides. What experiences should EITs be seeking out in order to become a competent engineer?

Also, the general opinion seems to be that engineering schools seem to be inadequate. Should EITs be seeking further education. Most of my senior level classes were also graduate classes, so I don't think it would provide a very different experience other than a large research project.

 

[civilperson]

There is no shortage of engineers, just a shortage of cheap engineers! Offer 250,000/year for engineering contracts and the supply will blossom to an excess. Computer gurus will be enrolling in thermodynamics and statics!

 

[Murec]

The subject of training (breaking in?) EITs came up a lot in the last few months at our company (EPCM for Alberta's Oilsands Industry), here are my $0.02.

I am not a fan neither of the army nor of communism but this is what they used to do:
- an officer would first have to complete a tour of duty in a combat unit before advancing to a staff position;
- when I graduated, over 20 years ago in communist Romania, EITs were obliged to work for the first three years in a production facility and only after that could move to an engineering company.

From my own experience, 15 years ago I changed fields - from manufacturing to chemical. I started by working for two years in field maintenance in a chemical plant and the experience I gained is invaluable. Today when I design plants I am thinking of actual equipment and not something virtual learned from books.

 

[Grubbyky]

Is switching jobs fairly often acceptable?

For example, I worked in a job for 4 mo, and I didn't see eye to eye with the company owner on a number of issues. (I think he saw PEs as just plan stampers, and that was his plan for me.) Then I took a job with a ready mix company to work as a project manager to set up a new small transit mix concrete plant. The company will have a rail project to work on soon, but after that, I think it is time to move on after being with that company for less than a year. (I was hired as kind of temporary, but my boss has found that I am quite versatile in other areas as well.) Also, my present employer doesn't employ any PEs; I intend to eventually be a PE.

I think I have gotten better experience by changing jobs instead of doing the same thing at the same place for the rest of my career, but I'm concerned about someone seeing short times at a job as instability.

 

[greenone]

Grubbyky-lots of short term jobs on a resume is a flag, but if you can explain it, most people are willing to acept the explanation. Will those previous employers give you a good reference? If not, then you have two strikes against you. Before you jump to another job, ask yourself if it is a job you can stick with for a few years and get experience that will qualify you to sit for the PE exam. If not, then maybe you need to keep searching for a better fit.

 

[KENAT]

I've been told on more than one occasion by people in the hiring position that too much jumping around is a red flag, and that they like to see a first job of around 4 years duration.

That said there are plenty of engineers who've had to jump around for one reason or another and are still employed.

 

[Senselessticker]

My rant:

Being a job-hopper has alot to do with your own ethics and personal values. I believe switching employeers after less then a year shows a lack of professionalism (unless there are some strange cirmcumstances in play). If you have >3 employeers over decade... you might as well call yourself a hooker, and assume no company worth its salt will ever consider you a real asset.

Job hoppers can always find a job, but they will never really have a career. Kind of sad really...

 

[opsops3]

Senselessticker (Electrical) I disagree with you

I know of companies that every 2-3 years have a "restructuring cycle" and or hire people on " permanent " roles that became redundant soon a project is finished.

I can see a lot of red flags with companies were engineers are operating cost and not assets.

My advice to the EIT : do what is right for you, no jobs are for life and don't expect any favours from companies big or small. Learn and take your experience with you as you see fit. Dont sell your skills cheap either. Good luck

 

[moltenmetal]

There are engineers who make a living tramping around the world from major project to major project. Some actually like that lifestyle. Chances are, the "some" aren't their wives/husbands and kids, but if they don't want any of these and they're after travel and the "excitement" of mega-projects, it can be a good lifestyle if that's what floats your boat.

The major consulting companies staff up when they have major projects and staff back down when they don't- since they're only in the business of selling man-hours at comparatively low margins, they have zero choice in the matter if they want to make money. They "need" a pool of "tramp" labour to make that happen, because they can't count on a stable level of business to make a long-term commitment to their entire staff. During good times, they are forced to pay a premium for the "tramps", and during bad times they simply don't hire- especially not new grads. They're always lobbying behind the scenes to keep the labour market flooded to keep the tramps' wages down. They cry "shortage!" so often it's a wonder anyone bothers to listen to them any more.

A few find a secure position on staff and become the "tramp overseers". These people often compel uncompensated overtime from the keeners amongst the tramps, and pocket the benefit in their profit-sharing cheques.

Does this sound like a "profession" to you? The good news is, this only represents PART of the industry- the part the smart ones amongst us steer well clear of!

Grubbyky: yes, someone who jumps jobs frequently raises a red flag, as does anybody who has a large gap in their employment history. Unless you've got a good story to tell, it will be assumed that you were repeatedly disloyal and left seeking higher wages somewhere else- i.e. you'd fit in much better amongst the "tramps" above, where such behaviour would be a most appropriate response to how you were being treated! But decent firms DO view their employees as an asset and invest time and money in training them, whether that be via hired courses or on-the-job mentorship by senior engineers. They can't afford to waste that effort, so they won't hire you if they feel their effort WILL be wasted.

So the question is- do you want to be a tramp, or do you want a professional career? If it's the latter, show that you can stick it out for a while. Don't put up with abuse, and don't get into a rut, but don't leave the second your feet get itchy. It'll get tired really fast.

 

[csd72]

Grubbyky,

You really should get a stayer for the next job. Personally I would think twice about employing an engineer that could not stay in a job for a year. I would consider a year and a half as a reasonable minimum with acceptance of one or two shorter periods or temporary contract positions.

That said, if you are not doing engineering at the moment then maybe you should look at other options. While you are still employed, check out the job market, try to attend a couple of interviews.

Dont forget that when you go for a position, you should try and interview them as much as they interview you. Ask them why they need a new person, how long current employees have worked for them, attitude on training e.t.c. This not only tells you if it is a good company, but also shows you are serious about the position.

 

[regalia]

I'm not sure whether I agree with you at all molten. At least here in the U.S., its the manufacturing 'empires' that seem to be hire and fire with their workforce. It's not at all unusual to see a fortune 100 to lay off 5-25% in one 12 month period. Heck, General Electric has mandatory 10% layoffs each year. In contrast, the turnover (staff level) at engineering firms seems to be largely voluntary in recent years.

I would much prefer to start my career in a chemical plant, but I don't think I will find such a job. I have to assume they are hiring people who have 2-3 years in consulting, because they sure don't seem to hire at entry level.

 

[moltenmetal]

Your mileage may differ depending on location, clearly. Depends on how consistent the workload is- how much of it arises from mega-projects and how much is baseload work from established clients.

In the petro/chemical business it's boom-time now, but trust me- that's not the new normal, it's a boom like all booms past. When the projects go, the consultants will dump staff as they always have done. And nobody will be standing ready to shut off the tap on the supply of engineers to the marketplace when the bust happens.

Here your best chance of longer-term retention is with smaller, privately held firms, whether that be in manufacturing or in consulting. That's probably true in the US too. Working for a publicly traded company is the same as saying that you work for a company whose share-holders are idiots. The "public" has no long-term vision and no knowledge of what your company is or does- they see only the share value at this moment and perhaps the size of the last dividend. It's a recipe for Dilbertesque management and HR behavior.

 

[warelephent]

moltenmetal, i worked for a global mega-project company for a year and I sort of agree with you about the tramps. I had to travel all over and live where the projects were. On one hand this is fun because everyday is an adventure, the pay is good, they gave me some money to cover expenses everytime i had to move, and I love traveling. On the other hand, its a horrible and isolating lifestyle and you can never have a girlfriend, letalone have a life. the only way i can see doing it is to be an alcoholic, then you don't care where you are.

The reason I don't totally agree with you is because you really do get paid well for your sacrifices and they take care of you; you are a corporate tool, but not really any more than anybody else. I didn't see anything that makes me think that the job-security wasn't excellent. The reason I didn't choose this life definitely isn't economic.

My advice is to work in the field at first if for no other reason than to hear all the old laborers tell you about women and life.

 

[HgTX]

I must have had a different grad program from most everyone else. Grad school is where I learned where those equations in the code book really came from, and how much (or how little) connection they have to physical reality. I came out of grad school with a much better practical clue about what all my numbers and lines on paper meant than I ever did as an undergraduate.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[dcasto]

I see two seperate issues in the OP's question. First as an EIT you need to stay employed and keep doing all those ordinary engineering calculations SO YOU CAN PASS the PE exam. The PE exame has nothing to do with how good of an engineer you are, its just our form of job protectionism.

I didn't go back and count or do anything eneering like with the posts, but they all say you need to ask questions and LISTEN to the resulting answers. You need to become well rounded and see all sides, See how the operators use the equipment or services, how its maintained, how its used, how it is marketted, what economic factors go into it, what social impacts, see everything, do not just jump into the engineering only.

 

[jpankask]

I agree with HgTX, grad school is where everything came together for me. I knew the equations and how to work the problems coming out of my undergrad. I still remember the time, about halfway through grad school when I was working on a problem and it just hit me "...so that's why we do that..." I feel I am a much better engineer because of my graduate education. However, I was working and going to school so I could see a direct relevance on what I was learning.

 

[civilperson]

As a tramp, I call myself a mercenary or engineering whore. I earn double what the permanent employees get with a constant search for the next best offer. I will leave any assignment for a 25% boost in salary, (cost of living adjustment needed for some locations). Last year I grossed 156k and with a overtime rate of 112.50/hour I am in great demand for deadline driven projects. I have had four "permanent" positions where the end of the project was the end of my employment. Three of these firms have hired me subsequently at contract rates. The top firms are glad to find me between assignments and I never stay more than 12 months, (IRS limit on per diem breakout).

 

[rtmote]

I have to agree with civilperson, it mirrors my own situation.

Every time I was taken on as staff, I got laid off at the end of the project. It was very disillusioning. I lived through some tough curves. I chose to remain contractor but didn't stick to my guns and got burned again.

At one time, my colleagues were leaving the enginering profession for jobs in computers and networks but I chose to stay in engineering through lean times. I was tempted many times as computers are my forte. I argued to myself that ultimately engneering is a profession of wisdom, it gets easier and better paid with the years. Now my colleagues are unemployed and busted, struggling to learn new technology, new languages and all for less money.

Suddenly, I have the grey hairs now and I teach the graduates and trainees the ropes. I enjoy the deadline, lump sum cultures, find I work harder, better and relax more. My career has taken me worldwide but I still look to see if 'the penny drop' and another engineer's light gets switched on. For most of us, it happens years beyond graduating. You ask yourself all the time, am I doing the right thing, is this what I want to do? Am I doing it yet? Is this it?

HgTX is right about learning the equations as a grad but it is a tiny slice of life as an engineer; you need vision, passion, confidence and still go out there and prove your competence to the client and yourself.

Dcasto nails it, stay to finish your PE, use it as a rare time in your life that won't come again and observe actively. Possibly everything in your future will be tied to this period of your career. Or possibly not but choose.

Go with your instincts, you have a whole life, an amazing career to enjoy, whether you stay with the herd or fly with the eagle. Each have their own path.

I had a heavy academic and sheltered life and chose to get as much site experience as possible to learn how the real world uses my ideas. My numerous years of site experience drive my office-based reality now.