What should new engineers know? 10

[ERE]

I teach in a mechanical engineering technology program of a large university. As part of our Continuous Quality Improvement process for accreditation, we have been discussing what skills our graduates should possess as they leave our institution. Our program emphasizes applied design and many of our graduates are employed as designers and engineers.

As practicing professionals with a wide range of experience and education, I am interested in your opinion of what engineering graphics skills and abilities a graduating mechanical engineering technology student should possess? Please don't limit your comments to graphics standards and GD&T when responding.

Thanks in advance for you comments.

Ed

 

[ctopher]

machinist experience and manufacturing know how, common sense, and basic knowledge of materials. Drafting/GD&T is a big plus. Knowing how a part is made will help design a better part.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
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[Tunalover]

Ed-

As it goes with graphics training, I think that an MET student should have six semester hours of mechanical drafting and CAD.

In my experience, the MEs (not METs) have always been expected to learn drafting and CAD on the job and then only to the extent that they will need them. There is simply not enough room in the ME undergraduate programs for extensive graphics or drafting training (should there be?)

Do your MET graduates get jobs as mechanical engineers? Isn't a mechanical "engineer" normally one with a formal education in calculus-based physics, higher mathematics, fluid mechanics, materials science, solid mechanics, and heat transfer among other things?



Tunalover

 

[Heckler]

Ed,

Manufacturing Processes - hands on (welding & machining)

Mechanical Drawing - GD&T, putting together a design package (requirements writing, technical reports, drawings, presentation of ideas and engineering economics ROR). Also current MCAD programs should be used in this proces.

Core engineering principles (statics, dynamics, thermo, HT, machine design & mechanics of materials)

Also, another important quality the new grad should posses is the ability to be trained. I can't speak for all employers but the ones I've worked for don't expect the new grads to know everything about the entire design process. I hope this helps





Best Regards,

Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
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Do you trust your intuition or go with the flow?

 

[Tunalover]

Keckler and others-
Ere asked for "your opinion of what engineering graphics skills and abilities a graduating mechanical engineering technology student should possess?" Why bring out mfg processes, mechanics, and sciences?



Tunalover

 

[ERE]

Thanks for the helpful comments… I think our program is pretty comprehensive. Our students take courses in chemistry and physics (not calculus based) as well as math - through diff. eqs. They also take coursework in engineering mechanics (statics, dynamics and strength of materials). The program includes courses in thermal sciences (thermo, heat transfer), industrial hydraulics, material science, manufacturing methods, machine design, vibrations and FEA. Students also have a 3 credit machine shop course in which they have hands-on experience with lathes, mills, casting, welding, etc. Our baccalaureate program is 134 credits.

Graduates of our program are employed in many traditional mechanical engineering roles. They are machine designers, manufacturing specialists, sales engineers - they do work in all types of industrial settings.

Our current discussion regards the two three-credit courses in engineering graphics that we teach. Solid modeling has been included in our curriculum for a long time – we had the first educational license for Pro/E. Solid modeling is used later in the FEA, rapid prototyping and other courses. We believe our students should be able to create a set of working drawings (assembly and detail drawings with parts lists) for a simple machine by the end of the six credits. Course topics support this main objective.

So, what are the topics you think support the main goal and to what degree should the material be covered?

Thanks again for your help.

Ed

 

[ctopher]

Ed,
Seems to me you are on the right track. If all engineers know the basics as you describe, especially the hands on training, they should do well ... if willing. Not all fields can be taught to a certain degree because all companies and their products are different. They will learn as they go.
Field trips to science centers and tours at manufacturing companies would be a big help.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP2.0 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site

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[monkeydog]

ERE,
One think I did not see in your description of the program was "Technical Writing" which should include Formal Reports, Informal Reports (memos), Presentations, and you could throw in resume writing in that course too.

 

[ERE]

Writing is absolutely essential... students take traditional english composition as well as a technical writing course. They also have two "writing intensive" courses in their major coursework. Our program is also filled with laboratory courses which all require written reports.

In their first year manufacturing class, students visit several companies (foundary, forging, machine shop, injection molding, etc.) to see how they do things.

Thanks again for the comments...

Ed

 

[ERE]

The focus of our TAC/ABET accredited program is applied design. Many of our graduates are hired with the title of engineer… in most states, they are eligible to sit for the PE exam. In fact, all of our students take the FE exam prior to graduation. Our pass rate is consistent with the rest of those taking the exam – engineers and technologist alike. One of my colleagues tells me that our program is very similar to the ME program that he graduated from in the early 1970’s.

As I see it, our engineering technology graduates are competent to perform routine mechanical engineering jobs. Granted, they probably would not be as good at R&D kinds of tasks as engineering science graduates. Many of those jobs require advanced degrees anyway. As with any field of study, there are great graduates, some graduates that you can’t believe made it and a bunch of people in between who will do a good job in the profession.

As a professional engineer, I have no trouble referring to an engineering technologist as an engineer… in my experience, their training is the "how-to" of engineering. I do, however, have trouble with calling the trash guy a "sanitation engineer".

Gotta go... now, where did I park my train? :-D

Ed

 

[Tunalover]

Ere-
As an educator in an MET program I understand how you would hold these views. I agree that ME and MET programs produce graduates with a wide spectrum of abilities. I had a boss once who was a PhDChemE who couldn't design his way out of a paper bag and didn't have an ounce of common sense in his body (he was fired while I still worked there).

When I graduated, I, like most of my classmates, knew nothing about the minimum bend radii of sheet metals. There simply was not enough room in the curriculum for that. The practical demands of the workplace forced me to learn that quickly though! Since many workplaces (especially small businesses) no longer have room for three people: an engineer, a designer, and a technician, they expect one of those guys to fill the shoes of all three. Many employers recognize the need to keep the classically-educated engineer who can perform all three roles and approach problems from the practical AND scientific angles. The bottom line is this: engineers just think differently than designers and technicians (including MET grads!).

As for the difference between MEs, METs, and designers, I draw an analogy coming from the medical profession: when patients go to their physician's offices, they'd much rather see their physician than the nurse practicioner or physician's assistant. The physician provides them with the highest level of confidence. Meanwhile, the cost of the visit is the same no matter who they see!


Tunalover

 

[ERE]

Tunalover,

I'm sure you know the the special name they have for the guy who finishes last in his medical school class... I used to go to a PA who was better than some MDs I've seen... I now see a DO who is excellent...

Some companies only hire MEs and some only want METs... I'm guessing it is a matter of personal choice or bias. I think both have their place in professional practice. It's better to make a choice based on abilities instead of the name of a program. All programs are not the same.

Ed


(In case you don't know, the special name is "doctor")

 

[ctopher]

Tunalover, thanks
Designers can have Eng degrees, so can techs, mechanics, machinists, marketing, sales, etc. I have seen it all. I don't know most backgrounds of people in this forum, so I can only go by my experience and theirs.
I have been a Asst Eng, Assoc Eng, Automation Eng, Draftsman, and Sr Designer. In all of those companies, most give the titles but they will not consider anyone a real engineer unless they have a P.E. Very few have it.
IMO, If you have the mfg/design know how, common sense, mechanical abilities, college training, and have crazy ideas you are an engineer.
Just my rambling.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP2.0 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site

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[Tunalover]

Ere-
You're right. There are cases when a PA or CNP provide better treatment than and MD but those are not widespread.

Of course I know that special name of "doctor" however I wisely choose to distinguish the MD from the PhD by using the term "physician." Using the term "doctor" could call up a PhD in Business for example.

Thanks to programs like MET, employers are starting to call people "engineers" who are not "engineers." That is their choice but the Lockheed Martins and Norhrop Grummans of the world still know the difference and hire accordingly. If an employer wants someone who can "do it all" his best recourse is still to hire a degreed engineer (one with an ENGINEERING degree) who can handle the practical AND the theoretical.




Tunalover

 

[ERE]

Interesting comments so far... what do graduates need to know about engineering graphics?

Ed

 

[Tunalover]

Ere-
"As it goes with graphics training, I think that an MET student should have six semester hours of mechanical drafting and CAD."


Tunalover

 

[drawoh]

ERE,

If someone is doing or involved in mechanical design, drafting and GD&T are critical skills which can easily be taught in a classroom, to MEs and METs. I am a Certified Engineering Technologist mechanical designer. The drawings are my final means of communication. If I am not responsible for the results, and the ME is, he had better understand what I do on the drawings, because my emails and remarks in meetings are irrelevant.

I make a point of reading up on GD&T, but then I took the opportunity to take a 60_hour course. It was easy, informative and worthwhile.

If I were interviewing people to do mechanical design, I would hand them three or four orthogonal drawings, and tell them to make isometric sketches. This would show me that they understand projections, and that they can visualize the part in three dimensions. This is absolutely critical for mechanical design.

JHG

 

[monkeydog]

Tunalover,
You seem pretty absolute on yu opinons of engineers coming out of the Engineering Technology, I have heard the ET grads being compared to engineers who graduated in the 30's and 40's.
What would you call an ET grad who is able to obtain a PE Licence?

 

[ctopher]

In addition to knowing CAD (solid models), engineers should be up on basic Windows, file management, and MSOffice programs. Knowing how to use a PC makes a big difference at being effeciant.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP2.0 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site

FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

 

[Heckler]

Tunalover,

Because Era included the word "abilities" which pretty much opened the door for other answers. I'm sensing you have some issues with METs! The school I graduated from had both programs and IMHO the METs kicked ass on the ME in all SAE design projects. In 1994, the MET's entered two vehicles in the West and Midwest SAE Mini Baja competition. If my memory serves me, they took 1st and 5th in the West and 2nd and 4th in the Midwest. They were up against all the major colleges and came out looking good. Also, they fielded a Formula SAE car in 1996 and took 10th place the second year.

http://students.sae.org/competitions/formulaseries/fsae/results/

This brings up another issue is the the college that produces the educated graduate or is the abilities of the students themselves that go on a do great things. I tend to believe that it's the students not what college they attend that makes the engineer.

Best Regards,

Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SW2005 SP 2.0 & Pro/E 2001
Dell Precision 370
P4 3.6 GHz, 1GB RAM
XP Pro SP2.0
NIVIDA Quadro FX 1400
o
_`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

Do you trust your intuition or go with the flow?