What should new engineers know? 10

[ERE]

I teach in a mechanical engineering technology program of a large university. As part of our Continuous Quality Improvement process for accreditation, we have been discussing what skills our graduates should possess as they leave our institution. Our program emphasizes applied design and many of our graduates are employed as designers and engineers.

As practicing professionals with a wide range of experience and education, I am interested in your opinion of what engineering graphics skills and abilities a graduating mechanical engineering technology student should possess? Please don't limit your comments to graphics standards and GD&T when responding.

Thanks in advance for you comments.

Ed

 

[Haf]

I don't think that tunalover is bashing METs. He's merely pointing out that METs and MEs are not the same and are not necessarily qualified to do the same work. I think his points are valid if a little off topic.

I work for large, and what many would consider prestigious, company that employs thousands of engineers. You must have an engineering degree from an accredited university to get hired as an engineer. An engineering technology degree can only get you hired as a technologist (our company's name for technicians).

What I find troubling is that I believe that many colleges that offer engineering technology programs mislead their students about the degree they are working towards. Many of the students in technology programs do not understand the difference between engineering and engineering technology. In many cases, they believe they will be hired as engineers when they graduate. Although some are (mainly by companies that have niche positions for technology grads, or by companies that may not understand the difference - YIKES), many are not.

Many of the people we interview for technologist positions seem confused and disappointed when the figure out they are interviewing for a technician position and not an engineering position. Sadly, some don't realize the true difference until they are hired, work for a while, and grow to understand the coroporate hierarchy.

Thus, my suggestion is to educate your students about the distinction between engineering and engineering technology. Do not mislead your students, or allow them to be misled.

 

[Heckler]

Haf,

What if a MET grad aquires a PE? I realize that there are companies that do know the difference and set up there hiring practices to reflect that. I know of companies that will not hire you as an engineer unless you hold a degree from a certain college. I worked for one of those companies (I have no idea how I got hired other than having the right skills and experience) but during my time there I saw these new grads (BS MS & PhD) stay for the training then they found other jobs (terrible ROR for the company). It was the employees from the local colleges that stayed around. I personally tend to judge the engineer not on degree held but on accomplishments. I know I'm off topic here but the cat is out of the bag.

 

[hydrae]

Back to the original question ERE:
When I was at the university, I found that could be the most difficult courses to pick were those electives in Arts and Letters, now if CAD Drafting could be called an Art, then a whole year could be devoted to a improving a skill that is necessary out there in the real world. And that is aside whether you have the ‘Tech’ on the end of your degree.

I also had similar requirements for writing for my BSME, but those courses were not useful in what I do today, what is needed for writing is specific to the style of writing that engineers use. Specifications, memos, analysis, reports, and discussion groups like here...
Hydrae

 

[Tunalover]

Heckler-
If an MET gets a PE then more power to him. That's a good sign. If his employer uses the PE and a four-year degree as the criteria for awarding the title of "engineer" then he is welcome to call himself that. It won't take long, though, for his coworkers to observe that he doesn't have a "classical" engineering education. Don't get me wrong. I've worked with designers who can "design the pants off" of some MEs.

I strongly believe, however, that BSMET students should be told that they generally will not be on an equal footing with BSME newgrads. They should also be given the unvarnished reasons why.


Tunalover

 

[ERE]

In my state, it is illegal to have the title "engineer" on your business card if you are not a licensed professional engineer - even if you have an engineering science degree from an ABET accredited program. (Lots of folks do it anyway.) If you pass the PE exam, you have earned the right to be called an engineer (BSME or BSMET) and to practice as one. Interestingly enough, until recently, one could qualify to take the exams (FE and PE) if they had no degree and a ton of relevent, progressive experience.

hydrae: Unfortunately, CAD drawing courses are not considered to be a general education electives... they are, however, required in the MET (6 cr) and ME (1 cr) programs. Students in engineering technology programs can take a sketching course (art elective - still lifes, etc.) for 3 of their required 6 credits. ME students cannot take a "skills" elective like this and have it count towards graduation. This is an ABET rule.

Haf: I agree that METs and MEs are not the same. They are not intended to be the same. But, in my opinion, there is a large overlap in the work that they do... METs are competent to do some of the work that MEs do... just like there are some things that an MET can do that an ME can't... the other thing to keep in mind is that all MET programs are not alike, just as all ME programs are not alike.

At our university, all freshmen have to take a 1 credit introductory "seminar" class in their intended major. These classes are taught by senior faculty in the major area. In our MET seminar, we discuss the differences between engineering and engineering technology and try to make students understand that there is a difference. We tell them the type of work that our graduates do. They are instructed to switch to ME if that is their preference. It would be unethical and immoral to not do that... I'd like to think that our program is not unique in this...

I never thought this discussion would turn out this way... I was just looking to verify that our program was teaching the right things in engineering graphics...

Ed

 

[GregLocock]

What do /you/ mean by graphics? Signwriting? styling? Sculture?

I'm struggling a bit

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[ERE]

GregLocock:

Stuff that goes into making working drawings of mechanical parts/machines - orthographic projections, isometrics, dimensioning and tolerancing, weld symbols, thread symbols, etc.

Ed

 

[MadMango]

Viso, PowerPoint and MS Project for reports and presentations. These are core "corporate" programs that students should be familiar with.

Hydraulic symbology and application
Pneumatic symbology and application
Electrical symbology and application
Welding symbology and application

Besides the standard 3-view manufacturing drawings, care should be given to proper drafting technique, such as line weights, line types, ect. It might also be helpful to have students work creating exploded assembly drawings with balloons. Its amazing to see how poor some people will explode a mechanism, expecting someone else to be able to assembly something from that drawing.

Mock engineering change processes (ECN/ECO) would also be helpful.

[green]"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."[/green]
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[GregLocock]

Oh, mechanical drawing, as we used to call it.

Hmm, I guess orthographic projection could possibly be regarded as redundant, in the age of solid modelling, but, what happens to someone who needs to interpret a traditional drawing, and has never constructed one? Constructing isometrics is also a bit of a party trick, probably the least important in your list, but also dead easy once you can do orthographic projection. Constructing sections on arbitrary planes is essential in my book.

As to the rest of your list, essential knowledge in my opinion, far more important than learning any particular CAD system.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[ewh]

I know that this has been mentioned, but understanding the correct use GD&T is very useful, as is the ability to create a correct mechanical drawing, whether an ME or MET. I am beyond being surprised anymore when I see what little many MEs know about these two subjects.

 

[Haf]

ERE,

I understand that there are jobs better suited for METs and jobs better suited for MEs and a bit of overlap, but that was not my point. Technology grads (particularly EETs) are extremely valuable where I work, and I'm not trying to take anything away from their degrees; at the same time, I am not willing to give them something that their degrees did not earn them.

It is good to hear that your university educates your technology students about the differences between engineering and engineering technology. You are right that it is the ethical and moral thing to do. However, many schools that offer MET and EET degrees do not offer engineering degrees, and I believe they are therefore less likely to frankly discuss the differences for fear of losing students. To make matters more confusing, these schools often offer degrees in "electrical technology" (two year associates degree) and "electrical engineering technology" (four year bachelors degree). The technologist that works for me now (an EET grad) told me just last week that when he was in school, he was led to believe that he would have a position like mine, and an ET grad would have a position like his. He is now debating whether to go back to school.

I am not trying to put down any technology grads or suggest that technology grads are never capable of doing certain work. The fact of the matter, though, is that, in general, they will have less opportunities than an engineering grad to do true engineering work. I don't believe that this will ever change. Schools that offer both engineering and technology programs have lower admission standards for their technology programs (just ask ERE). Good companies recognize this and recognize that engineering grads, in general, are a cut above FOR PERFORMING ENGINEERING WORK.

 

[ERE]

GregLocock:
Studies have shown that having the ability to translate 2D views into 3D views and vice versa contributes to a students success in an engineering curriculum. That probably translates into a more successful career. I agree completely about the sections... very important

MadMango:
Exploded assemblies are important and are covered in our curriculum. We stress sketching over the use of instruments to create drawings. We think the CAD program takes care of lineweight, etc. I really like the idea of a problem involving a change order. The uphill battle is that students seem to think the first go around is enough... I tell them the way it is but I don't think they always hear me...

Forgive my ignorance, but what is Viso? I'm guessing it is a spreadsheet program?

Ed

 

[monkeydog]

ewh,
I would agree with you on the GD&T aspect. The ANSI Y14.5 should be required text, along with some practical examples and problems. That should be required for ME's also. Although I would not make a semester out of it.
I also agree with you that many engineering tasks can be accomplished by both 4-year MEs and 4-year METs.

Tunalover,
If an ET graduate is able to pass the FE (EIT) exam, has he not shown the minimum requirements for an engineering position?

 

[ERE]

ewh:
In a lot of engineering programs around very little stock is placed in engineering graphics/mechanical drawing. In many of the programs at my university (AERO, ME, IE, EE, CE) students get 1 credit of graphics instruction as part of a 3 credit introductory design course. When I first started 15 years ago, it was 3 credits of mechanical drawing alone.

Haf: Thanks for your comments... we do have both ME and MET programs. We get a lot of students in MET who transfer from the ME program. Some are more interested in the applied aspects of the MET program and some can't do the math and physics. Unfortunately, you are correct that the requirements for admission to MET are less than for ME. It pains me that we have students (engineering and ET) who need to take remedial English before taking freshman composition.

 

[ERE]

monkeydog:
I don't think our MEs get any GD&T at all. Our METs currently only get about 15 hours of it. I'd love to have a course that covered GD&T along with the associated metrology and a little functional gage design.

Ed

 

[MadMango]

ERE, have a look here about Visio:

http://www.microsoft.com/office/visio/prodinfo/default.mspx

[green]"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."[/green]
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[ERE]

Visio looks pretty interesting... I'll have to check it out. Thanks.

Ed

 

[drawoh]

ERE,

I thought of one other thing. If your students are sitting over some sort of drafting tool, they should be taught Design for Manufacturing and Assembly (DFMA). I have the Boothroyd Dewhurst Knight textbook, and I am satisfied with it.

Its only omissision as far as I can tell is inspection. This is a major concern, especially if you are studying GD&T as well.

JHG

 

[ewh]

drawoh is right in including inspection. GD&T is not only based on the function of the part, but how it will be inspected.

 

[DReimer]

I'm glad you're asking this question, because this is a bit of a pet peeve of mine.

I employ a mix of engineers and junior "designers" who have graduated from a mechanical technology program. I enclose designer in quotations because they are basically doing CAD work. Yet I can't call them drafters, because they don't know how to draw!

Some explanation: I find that technology programs are teaching graduates how to use the tools (e.g. 3D CAD) but not how to make good use of the skill. For example, my junior guys are wizards with 3D CAD, but they have no sense of how to properly dimension a part. And I don't mean in depth knowledge of Y14.5 or GD&T, but just knowing that you need to dimension a part based on how it fits with other parts. So we get drawings with free surfaces as datums, tolerance stacking errors from the use of baseline dimensioning where continuous dimensioning is more appropriate, too many or too few drawing views, dimensions in the wrong view, etc.

This isn't stuff that necessarily requires a high level of competence in GD&T. But it does require more understanding of the process of assigning dimensions and tolerances to a part than you get in a SolidWorks or Inventor course. I'm working with these guys to give them a better understanding, but is it unreasonable to expect a technologist level graduate to know this stuff?

Dean