what to choose?

[worldman]

hello

I have been offered both the Engineering Management Apprenticeship of Defence Equipment and Support of the Ministry of Defence UK and the Ford Higher Apprenticeship in Product Development.

Which should I choose?

Both fund an engineering degree. The Ministry of Defence, the role is for project management, but there are opportunities to become engineering specialist. At Ford, it is about improving the powertrain. Both are permanent positions, with similar money at the begining, but don't know about afterwards.

Ask me if you need more info.

Thanks!

 

[msquared48]

Well, from the Yank perspective, I would go with the latter as the former can't even properly spell the word "Defense" correctly!

Seriously, I don't know how it works in the UK, but in government positions here, the work it can get boring and tedious - happened to me when working for a public utility here early in my career. I had to give up the security of a government position (back then it was more securer), leave and move to the private sector. More risks there, but better opportunity to learn new things.

Working for a large company like Ford can have it's benefits, particularly if given the opportunity to develop new ideas and technology. But, like government, you can get lost in a larger company too...

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[KENAT]

The real question is 'what do you want to do when you grow up' do you want to be more of a project manager or doing actual engineering?

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[worldman]

The real question is 'what do you want to do when you grow up' do you want to be more of a project manager or doing actual engineering?

I really don't know. I don't want to expect from me to invent the next big thing in engines and if not to dismiss me. I don't know much about project management, but I suppose it entails much reading of legislation and contract terms etc, which is some bureaucracy that I wouldn't say I enjoy. So, I really don't know.

 

[MadMango]

For what it's worth, I've seen many engineers laid off while the project manager(s) survive. Only once have I seen a project manager laid off, and that was due to pure ineptitude. I know many engineers that were project managers early in their careers, some pursue it while others went on to technical engineering careers. You need to do what interests you the most to remain happy.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

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[worldman]

what does project management entail?

also, if I become a developer engineer in Ford, will I be able to move to other sectors, like medical devices?

 

[KENAT]

I used to work in the defence industry in the UK, I met very few direct MOD employees that did any real engineering. Some folks in DSTL & Qinetiq did some, I supect some nominally MOD employees at various depots may have done the odd bit but the guys that worked.

They guys we dealt with spent their time worrying about inventory, doing accounting etc. to check if they wanted to spend the money for certain tasks...

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[IRstuff]

Typically, government engineers are essentially program/project managers of contractors that are doing the actual engineering. While they typically do not necessarily need to be engineers, it helps to be one, so that you don't always need to have a "real" engineer sit with you in EVERY discussion.

No one is expecting the solution to "miracle needed HERE" from anyone, much less a newbie engineer. Whatever miracle exists or needs to exist is usually surrounded by 99% existing technology, since the miracle simply needs to be "re-packaged."

TTFN
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[tickle]

My two cents / pence.

Engineering is moving offshore to low cost engineering centres (I know my view is pessimistic and others have a more optimistic view)
The MOD produce good project managers and they can work over several industries

So I agree with MadMango - I have not seen many PMs let go and they seem to jump industries more frequently than engineers

Tickle

 

[ctopher]

Curious...
If you don't know what you want to do, how did you get the offers? You must know something if you applied there.

Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

 

[GregLocock]

" I don't want to expect from me to invent the next big thing in engines and if not to dismiss me. "

No, Ford doesn't work like that (shame really, a bit of blood on the floor would encourage les autres). By getting an offer for a sponsored place at uni you have already demonstrated that you have a lot of what they are looking for. You may find it hard to move out of automotive, that's a culture thing, but there is no intrinsic reason that you are locking yourself out of medical engineering, in fact a bit of automotive discipline in product development seems quite welcome in other industries.

Be aware that whatever happens to Ford in the UK, it is a great big world out there and there are many countries that would be available to move to, with a great relocation package typically.

So far as the MoD goes, yes there are real engineering jobs, at Boscombe Down and the like, but as the answers above indicate most of the engineering is done by the suppliers. If your course offers any modules in Systems Engineering you should take them if you go with the MoD. or Ford for that matter.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[worldman]

aren't project managers mainly employed in contract/temp base? this isn't very risky?
unless a good project manager can secure an operations management role or similar, which is quite a good progression, in contrast to an R&D manager who afaik is paid less
otherwise, is it only me who sees problem-solving R&D engineers more employable/secure?

 

[KENAT]

worldman In the fields you are looking at - automotive & defence & in the UK - last I heard (10+ years ago) project managers are probably slightly more likely to be direct employees than technical staff.

For me personally, perceived job security as a 'project manager' would take a second place to wanting to kill myself if I had to project manage full time. I also have really big reservations over project managers not having a good technical foundation. However, you may not feel similarly.

Greg, most of those technical jobs at places like Boscombe Down etc. are either Qinetiq or DSTL - and some of what were Qinetiq jobs have gone to other companies now (at least according to one former colleague).

I actually got asked by active military folk working in MOD logistics as project managers to defy laws of physics and air worthiness good practice so I admit that I question the engineering judgement of MOD employees.

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[worldman]

thanks for your replies

I am afraid that in MoD I won't gain any skills to make me employable in case I want to move to another company, industry, or even country.
What will I gain in MoD? Apart from experience in project management? And who will want to employ me as a project manager, without having a deep knowledge in a specific field? If I wanted a project manager, I would employ a good engineer in the specific discipline first, who will have project management experience, and not a project manager who is not solid engineer (ie. who hasn't worked as a pure engineer ever in his life). Are my fears valid?

Instead at Ford, I will learn how to use simulation software, design software, I will learn finite element analysis, I will have in my showcase perhaps some achievements in research, etc. These are some skills that make me employable, I understand it. But in MoD? What kind of skills I will gain to become employable? Monitoring the installation of a jet engine control system? Without having deep knowledge of the electronics of it? Etc.

I really don't know, please advise.

 

[KENAT]

worldman, we are giving your advice. What we're not doing is telling you what to do (well most of us) because it's not our place to do so - we don't know you or what your real interests are etc. and we aren't the ones affected by the decision so don't have much skin in the game.

Traditionally the pros of govt jobs are that they are seen as more secure & with better benefits/working conditions but I'm not sure how true that is any more - at least the security. You may also have some sense of patriotism driving you the MOD route.

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[europipe]

Kenat
"the pros of govt jobs are that they are seen as more secure & with better benefits/working conditions but I'm not sure how true that is any more - at least the security."
This is also doubtful these days in Western Europe.
A lot of people have been fired here too.

 

[worldman]

as for potential earnings, wouldn't be best if I moved into Oil&Gas or Medical Devices? or they are similar to Powertrain Development?
which of those two offers I got would prepare more effectively to make a move?
also, what skills would I gain in MoD to make me further emploable?

 

[carlharr]

In all honesty, I think you're overthinking this.

They both sound like great offers, and could be a stepping stone to anything you wanted in those two fields, should you choose to move on in later years.

You just need to ask yourself which career path sounds most rewarding to you, and go with that. That's all that really matters in the end, job satisfaction.

http://www.jcb.com

NX 8.5 with TC 8.3

 

[worldman]

yees, that's my problem, I am overthinking everything!

 

[berkshire]

Worldman.
Have you asked yourself the basic question, " What would you like to do? " . You are being offered an education on a plate that most students would die for, from not just one , but two entities. Look for the course that will give you the most satisfaction.

I came up a couple of levels underneath what you are being offered now: I had an Apprenticeship, City and guilds ordinary, advanced, and Full tech certificates, Ordinary National Certificate. I would like to have taken HNC but circumstances at the time dictated otherwise.
Bottom line ,I am now 72 years old now retired, and have never had to worry about finding and getting a job during my working life.
Get the education based on what you want to do with your life, not based on what you see now as generating the most money. life changes , things change.
B.E.



You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.