What to do with "bad" engineers

[UcfSE]

What do you do when you know an engineer, maybe a former/current co-worker or boss, who is unethical, doesn't "engineer" things correctly and won't correct it or shrugs it off when you ask about it? Or maybe this person is just techinically incompetent and leaves things unchecked, unengineered, and makes no effort to correct the problem by learning or something else. Let's say you are asked to retrofit a structure and in your investigations you find that the original construction doesn't meet the code requirements it needed to when it was built.

I asked my boss these questions and he told me that if you make accusations that you can't provide fully, then that person can go after and take your license away. He said he found that out when he was in that kind of situation.

Is this true? Do we have to choose between exposing dangerous engineers and losing our license if we don't have all the facts? It seems there would be no way to know everything without having all the calcs and drawings and such, and therefore its unlikely you could ever do anything about it. Has anyone here been in this situation? What do you guys do?

 

[JAE]

A couple of thoughts:

1. First distinguish between the technical problems of an engineer's design, and potential ethical/law violations such as specific items listed in your engineering law of your area.

2. For ethical/law type violations, first carefully check your engineering practice act documents. In the US, each state issues specific rules and guidelines that govern behavior, professionalism, responsibilities to the client, etc. If you think you have a violation that is possible, there is no conflict or reason NOT to contact your local engineering board and discuss this with them. You can offer them what facts you do have and then its up to them from that point to proceed with further investigation or resolve to drop it.

3. For technical lapses or concerns I would first feel compelled to contact the engineer directly. I say this because sometimes you don't have all the facts and by discussing your concerns directly with the engineer, sometimes a misunderstanding is cleared up right away. If it was me on the other end, I really would want to hear from a concerned engineer first.

If the engineer scoffs at you and ignores your concern - then the next step is to contact the engineering board again.

I can mention two example situations I've been aware of in the past:

a. An engineering professor in Texas once spoke that he drove by a new building construction site each morning going to work. He began to notice that there were beams set on column cap plates which had no web stiffeners. The beams were very deep and this was an obvious problem. They felt compelled to eventually contact the owner of the building (they didn't know who the EOR was) and eventually got their concern communicated to the engineer.

b. I once had a school to design and part of it was to be a tornado shelter hardened design. We were given an example school that the school district had just built. After going over the design I discovered that the roof deck wasn't fastened to the steel with enough fasteners to truly resist the 200 mph winds. I contacted the original engineer and expressed my concern - In this case, I didn't follow up but did record my communication to him in our job file. I still wonder if I should have followed up as the deck wouldn't stay down in a tornado wind....in a 90 to 130 mph sure..

 

[Ron]

JAE...right on target as usual. I would add that most boards require an engineer to identify himself when voicing a complaint, whether it be a complaint about unlicensed activity, poor engineering, or other. This discourages some engineers from making complaints.

Most boards/statutes also have a provision that says something like if you know of incorrect engineering or improper practices by a licensed engineer, you MUST report it (part the protection of the health, safety, and welfare of the public with which we are tasked).

To my knowledge, you are protected to some degree when making a complaint. If, of course, you make an invalid complaint, the engineer can sue you in civil court; however, I do not think that he can go after your license for making a complaint.

 

[JAE]

Ron - have you ever heard of anyone suing for this? I can't recall ever hearing it - this despite the huge number of disciplinary actions I read each quarter in all the states I'm licensed in. I would think that any suit would have to be based on libel or slander, etc. and this usually must be in a public arena vs. a semi-confidential notice given to an engineering board.

 

[Ron]

JAE...I don't know of anyone being sued because of a complaint. I believe our Board has been sued because of disciplinary action taken against an engineer, but I don't think it carried to the complaint filer.

I agree that most any suit would have to be a civil action based on slander or libel; either of which can be controlled by the complainer with reasonable care.

 

[BobPE]

Bad engineers are a difficult thing in our profession. A lot of us engineers can see them from a mile away. But a lot of clients and people who receive services cannot usually see them as bad.

I have dealt with them in the past on a peer to peer level, and I tell you what, it is not an experience for the faint of hears when you confront a bad eningeer. You need to be professional and prepared. Do not attempt to confront them as a peer unless you have the facts in front of you and are willing to share them with the person.

Be prepared to discuss a plan of action, for once you confront the bad engineer, you will need to tell them what your future plans are to get assistance if conditions do not imporove. Again, not for the faint of heart, and I say that because it is not a bad idea to seek help from other engineers in dealing with a situation like this.

Engineering is about team work. It seems like in my experience, the bad engineers were always loners....bringing them into the team has always returned positive improvements to them being bad...This is a non confrontational approach which doesn's always work...but worth a try.

I doubt highly the loss of license issue. As a PE it is the PE's responsibility to police their own ranks. Loss of licesne threats would stop enforcement alltogether.

Let us know how you make out...

BobPE

 

[EddyC]

Make sure that the problem is very severe before taking any action. I have seen improper designs that didn't meet code but most likely would never be a problem unless a series of remote coincidental events occured. Also, if I had to rat out every coworker or employer that acted unethically, I wouldn't be employed for long. Choose your battles very carefully as it can impact your long term employability. And keep in mind that you are 1 person and its not your job to save the world.