What would you do? 5

[Pressed]

This question for me is years over but I thought about it the other day and I would like to hear what others would have done given the situation.

On a normal day working in your office and told to come to a mandatory meeting about the United Way (large US charity). At the meeting there you see the entire office staff. They give you a pamplet and donation form with your name and address printed on it.

The city or county United Way rep gives a speech about who they are and thier services to the community. The services are many but most of which I haven't heard of before. Shows a 25 minute film going into detail about thier services. Then another speech about need, donations and a justification about giving money followed by the amount that is normal for the employees in the room to give; 10% of the annual salary. Finally asking you to have a nice day and please fill out the form and hand it to the rep as you exit. What would you do???

The form has a big check box for 10% of salary followed by a smaller section for a cash donation.

Other than the outcome, which I will tell amongst the anticipated replies, that is all the information I knew up to the moment I made a decision on what to do.


_______________________________________
Feeling frisky.........

http://www.tailofthedragon.com

 

[Jabberwocky]

Not to be too aggressive but you're being unnecessarily sarcastic ther buzzp. RDK is just calling things as he sees them. I think he has a very good point about the fundamental tribalism of the human creature. You also have a good point about not blindly following the leader. As with all things the truth is likely somewhere in-between.

I read a book about the definition of beauty once, forget the title, but the basic (scientifically-backed) premise was that the closer to the "average" look you had, the more attractive you would be - to a point. The truly exceptionally beautiful people would be very close to the average, but with some striking difference - Cindy Crawford's mole for instance.

I think it's much the same within a group dynamic. People who follow along and blend in will get along just fine, but people who have a special something in addition will be the ones on top.

 

[buzzp]

Maybe I am but I made my point, which is what I wanted to do.
I am not going to accept something because the group accepts it. We have all heard someone say "Well its worked fine and we have done it that way for years". If everyone accepted the groups opinion, then where would be be?
I don't disagree with RDK's observations concerning running with the pack. All too many of us fall into this. I am just not one of them. If someone disagrees with something, you should speak up. I am not saying go in a raise cane with the boss but you can politely deliver your opinion rather than tell everyone about your opinion except the people that can do something about it. As I said, everyone agrees this should not be occurring but yet no one has said they have voiced their concerns or suggested voicing their concerns to someone with authority. Why is that? Because of our desire to run with the pack (at least most peoples desire)? I would agree that this is why most would not speak up but it is NOT a valid reason for not speaking up.
I still can't believe this type of thing happens in the US. I guess I have been fortunate not to run across this before with all the commonalities amongst the posters.

 

[RDK]

Where did I say anything about blindly running with the pack?

Even the leader of the pack is one member of the group.

Even the leader has to participate in the group norms or the group will no longer recognize him or her as the leader.

If you want to pick a battle then pick it on something that matters. Having to spend a few minutes or even an hour of time that you have sold to someone else and are getting paid for to attend a meeting is not one that I would consider worth fighting over.

Go ahead and fight against group norms; however at the risk of spoiling the suspense I can tell you right now that you will lose.



Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[sms]

So Buzzp, you have now sparked my curiosity. How is that working out for you?

I go back to my original point, doesn't matter if it is hockey or corporate existance, there are rules to the game, and if you break the rules you end up in the penalty box. I prefer to spend my time on the ice making things happen and contributing to goal scoring. If you don't know the rules, learn them, if you can't abide by the rules, find a different game. Like it or not that is one of the most important keys to career success, assuming that success is defined by promotions, raises, etc...

I once had an engineer working for me that I had a number of issues with, but none of them serious enough to fire him over. I sat down with this guy, told him the areas he needed to work on and why, and told him he wasn't going to get a raise until there was some improvements. He told me his salary was fine, and carried on as before. That was good for me, I got value out of him that was equal to his salary so I didn't worry about it. He went on for several years with no raises. Eventually I moved on and his new boss was not so understanding or willing to see that he provided sufficient value to justify his salary, and fired him. He went his own way, and that way led out the door...

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

 

[buzzp]

Speaking up has its pitfalls, no doubt, but it also has some benefits.

The pitfalls would be burnt bridges for those companies (bosses) who want yes man working for them. Yes there are lots of those types of bosses. These types of people are often on a power trip and could not lead a dog to water. If a company wants this type of person in the lead, then thats enough for me to know I don't want to spend any more time with them because of lack of real leadership. It has never, ever, cost me a job. I have never been fired or laid off from any job except as a cashier at a gas station when I was 17 (called in sick on a saturday night).

If your selective and not going off the handle every week, good leaders want to hear whats on your mind. They want someone to challenge their decision with relevant facts when it needs to be challenged. As I said before, I may or may not challenge in this particular case unless I was a participant and knew all the facts. IE, does the company allow you to sell girl scout cookies? magazines? etc for all your kids? This is only one question of many.

I had one boss who was a good engineer and was not on a total power trip. I challenged his decisions several times over the course of a couple of years. Sometimes I won out and proved my course of action would be best. The rest of the time, we did it his way. He told me he appreciated me stepping up and questioning his decisions, when I thought it needed to be questioned. Even though sometimes I was wrong, it kept him thinking clearly because he knew if he wasn't then I would be in to talk about different options or the fallacies of his decision. These were gentlemen discussions with mutual respect for one another. These were not heated arguments or shouting matches. I got a promotion after two years to engineering manager.

Don't think that I am some loner who can't get along with anyone. I am a team player. However, if I think what is happening is wrong, I will speak up. This is not to say that every little nuance, I will run in a yell at the boss. I do pick my battles because there are too many of them and I am only one person.

So all in all, it has worked out well for me. I have never been unemployed as an engineer. I make a decent wage and am now just about to quit my regular job and work for myself (income of my company is high enough now that I can quit regular job). I am satisfied that I have not compromised my beliefs (ethics, morales, etc) in order to fit in with the 'team'.

I am definately a team player. Anyone who knows me would tell you that. However, if I disagree and find it important enough, I will speak up to the people who can do something about it rather than rant to a bunch of people who can't (this is not addressed to the poster but you know the whiners on your team). I won't merely excuse my lack of speaking up as an attempt to maintain team coherency. Not speaking up causes tension in the team because most of them are wandering why this particular decision was made but most of them are not leaders and will merely take it and move on.

 

[HgTX]

I'm still not seeing how "Thanks for the opportunity, but I already contribute to charity on my own" is such a controversial thing to say.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[RDK]

HgTX

Nothing wrong with that but there were some here arguing that people should walk out, loudly disagree or even threaten legal action on the issue.

Those sort of actions would be giving the group norms the finger. Not a wise career move.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[buzzp]

HgTX, If your last post was directed at me, my post had nothing to do with "Thanks for the opportunity, but I already contribute to charity on my own". It had everything to do with the idea we should excuse actions like this because the group participated, albeit reluctantly. The group would probably appreciate someone with a spine speaking up, if they felt the need.

Enough said from me, I have learned there are some people, still, who visit eng-tips, that are too arrogant to acknowledge anyone elses argument as valid, even with the scale tipped with more valid points made in support of the argument.

 

[HgTX]

I'm not sure who I was aiming at. I think it was more to those who were saying "Don't rock the boat, just pay the $20, what's the big deal, and while you're at it you should wear the same brand of clothing as the boss (or go swimming at the same time he does, or whatever)."

Me, I probably would have been one to stand up and object loudly, but then I'm a biggol' loudmouth. And I have created enough of a positive reputation for myself simply through being good at my job that it is unfathomable to me to do something simply for the sake of impressing someone else. To me, anyone who needs to do something simply to look good must not be good enough at what they're supposed to be doing.

But I can understand those who would advise against taking an active stand against the solicitation policy. I have other areas in which I am very risk-averse, and I understand that concept. What I don't understand is how not making a stand necessarily means just sucking it up and making the donation, whether it's the insane 10% of salary mentioned in the original post or $20 mentioned later. Refraining from battle against something does not have to mean adopting it for oneself.

At least I think that's what I meant.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[RDK]

If you are going to flout the group norms then you better be very good at what you do, you better also be able to avoid being blamed for things that are not your doing and you better also like less than desirable assignments.

And avoiding the blame for things not your fault does not always mean volumes of documentation; it may simply mean telling your side first to someone who likes you as a person before someone blames you. You also may not have the opportunity to tell your side before you are found guilty either so all the documentation will moist likely never get seen by anyone who can help you.

And if you flout the group norms then the group just may not like you as a person and accept that you are at fault, don’t confuse things with the facts, just take your punishment.

Because these are the things that happen to those who violate the group norms.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[buzzp]

Nice to see someone who is close to sharing my views on following along with the group simply for the sake of following them. Star for HG.

 

[ziggi]

Bosses are human beings just like the rest of us, and as such they are IMperfect. They have personality flaws just like the rest of us.
Some male bosses may treat men better than women b/c they feel that men are superior, other male bosses may prefer women to men b/c their female employees sycophancy fuels their ego....and vice versa for female bosses. Others may see your ideas as threats to their intelligence, yet other might just steal those ideas.

In my experience very few people have gotten to positions of power without some sort of skulduggery and without an ego (usually a result of obtaining the power position)
Your boss is probably no exception.

What I suggest is trying to figure out what sort of boss your boss is and just go with the flow. For all you strong independant types out there, think of it this way, to win, you have to keep your friends close and your enemies closer. And WHEN your boss helps you up to the position of power, you can hire on people who are to your liking.