Whatever Happened to Legal and Moral Boundaries?

[casseopeia]

I knew my last job was not a good place for me, even before they terminated my employment at the end of the year. I started talking to a recruiter who specializes in my field months before I was let go. I feel like I am being put through the ringer. So far I have,

1. Been interviewed over the phone for character and technical knowledge on three separate occasions. I passed those interviews.
2. Taken an on-line test for MS Word
3. Taken an on-line test for Excel proficiency
4. Taken an on-line test probing my personal interests, attitudes and values
5. Taken in on-line test for behavioral style.

I assume I did well on the on-line tests. I have been passed on to the interview-in-person stage. But first I have to fill out and return,

1. An Application for Employment which asks my employment record back to the very beginning
2. I must sign a document that describes my rights in the State of California, and
3. I must also sign a Disclosure and Authorization form, including my social security number and birthdate allowing this potential employer to complete a criminal background check, a credit check and run a DMV record.

This is a private company. It is not a bank or other financial institution. It is not part of the judicial branch of the United States. I am not applying for a job as a swat team sharp shooter. I can't image that I am applying for a job where I must routinely handle in excess of $10,000 in cash. I mention all of these things because there are laws in California about what a potential employer can get from you PRIOR to being hired. As of January 1, employers are very restricted on when they can run a credit check. You pretty much have to be a bank or a law enforcement agency or similar.

The Application covers the "have you ever been convicted of a felony, plead guilty or arrested and currently out on bail pending trial" question. I don't have a problem with that. But I do have a problem offering up my social security number and birthdate so that they can run a DMV and credit check. It's the credit check that I have the most trouble with. Mine is not great, some of it my fault, some of it not. I just don't think it's their business.

As an alternative, I have offered to bring my own copy of my 10-year DMV record which should now be completely clean with zero points. I have considered offering to do a drug test and have them fingerprint me instead of the credit and criminal checks. I have no criminal record. I've never been arrested and my drug test should come up clean, but a friend said not to offer to do those and just go ahead and give them my SSN and birthdate.

I am really, really not comfortable with that. I am somewhat indignant because I have been put through a battery of tests for a job and have not been told for what position I am being considered. The Word and Excel proficiency tests were something that I would give to someone being considered for the Steno Pool. The tests asked none of the basics and was mostly keyboard short cuts. The credit and criminal background would be appropriate if I were being considered for company accountant or corporate signatory. Neither one of those positions would have required the hour long technical interview asking me to describe the exact steps required for installing a 4-ply built up roof as well as describing what a 'grout curtain' does.

In addition to the endless forms and tests, they have requested that I also bring in copies of recent reports, drawings, details and proposals I have completed for my employer WTF! Are they kidding?

Am I over reacting to this?


"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump

 

[MikeHalloran]

You're under-reacting.

Either they are trying to gauge just how much sh!t you will take, in which case you've taken too much already, or the whole thing is an identify theft scam.

Tell them to make a detailed written offer or go to hell.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[SAITAETGrad]

Some say the office has become the ultimate nanny state.

Most likely they are just asking for the information because they think they can and think they should. If they actually look at it at all is another matter.

 

[berkshire]

Cass,
I went through this 12 years ago. I refused to sign.
2 years later the company went bust, and the company I was then working for, (Who did not ask for all that crap) bought them out.

I derived a great deal of satisfaction in recommending to my boss, that they, not hire, the head of HR at the company we were acquiring.
There are, reasonable companies out there,keep looking.
B.E.

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor

 

[SLTA]

totally agree with Mike. seriously, you have no idea what position you're up for? and aren't those things they're asking for from your previous employer technically property of your previous employer?

maybe it's time to move to another city. yowza.

 

[ajack1]

Good grief, I knew that employees or potential employees had far more rights in the UK than the USA but I did not realise they were that different.

We seem to have arrived at the two opposite ends of what could be seen as reasonable.

 

[berkshire]

ajack1

Yes it is totally different in the USA to the UK.
Here unless you have a signed contract in most states you are working on an at will basis. Which means you only have to give or get an hours’ notice, or an hours pay before you either quit, or the company lets you go. Also in some states they have indentured servitude laws which make some contracts unenforcable.

In a lot of companies the first thing you will know about your impending doom is two security guards showing up at your desk, emptying its contents into a couple of cardboard boxes and escorting you to the personnel office.


On the shop floor in a trade union shop it is almost as bad. The unions in the USA act as a hiring agents for the employers. So when work runs out, you will be sent back to the union hall to sit on the bench to await your next job dispatch. Just like a temp agency in the UK.
On the other side of the coin you can go where you like, and starting your own business is far easier than the UK

B.E.

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I am somewhat indignant because I have been put through a battery of tests for a job and have not been told for what position I am being considered.

I'm trying to imagine how you even got into such a position... if a recruiter won't tell me the job specifics, I don't give them permission to send in my particulars. Blindly applying to any company is just not a mindset option for me...

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[berkshire]

Cass,
Are you sure you are not interviewing for a "purple squirrel" position?
B.E.

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor

 

[FixedEarth]

I am surprised they haven't asked for a DNA sample to verify who you claim to be? Seriously, your hunch is right- avoid this firm and move on today. Try networking and applying directly at the firm's website.

 

[FreddyNurk]

Well, if thats the level of documentation and rigour that they're asking for as a potential employee, you don't need much of an imagination to see what it'd be like to work for them.

 

[jgailla]

My current job required a background check.
They did not, however, ask for any information to do the background check until after they had sent me the offer letter.
I did not consider it unreasonable, as I have seen unscrupulous individuals at work that would not have been hired after a simple criminal background check. I also do a lot of non-secret government work.

 

[cvg]

have you ever heard of E-Verify?, the background check is standard fare now in most border states along with any business that does work for the Government. In some cases it is required by law. What you describe sounds similar if not a bit more in depth than what is required by DHS.

see Dept. of Homeland Security

http://www.dhs.gov/e-verify

 

[casseopeia]

E-Verify is prohibited from being enforced in California. An employer can ask if you can prove a legal right to work in the US after you are hired. For me, I am still carrying around a copy of my birth certificate from the last job just for that purpose. I've heard that there are numerous clerical errors with E-Verify. It sounds good until the government gets their hands on it.

berkshire, this could be a "purple squirrel" situation, but I'm feeling more like I am being data-mined. The interview process is for the purpose of obtaining information about one of their competitors. That's why the request for the reports, proposals drawings and details.

sita, no matter how horrible my ex-employer is, there is no way I would consider turning over documents to a competitor. It's unethical.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump

 

[denoid]

I agree with FixedEarth. Networking and/or direct applying to the company is the way to go. At least you know who you're dealing with.

Speaking of moral and legal boundaries, about 12 years ago, I went through a recruiter for a new position. Recruiter gave my information to new company; manager at new company was friends with my old manager, called him up and told him I was leaving the old company, which made things extremely uncomfortable. After that, I refused to interview with the new company, but found a better job through networking. I also chewed out the recruiter big time for letting that ever happen.

 

[cvg]

if you do any work for federal agencies, e-verify or I-9 is required, regardless of state laws (just not before you are hired). Nothing however prevents them from obtaining the necessary information to run the e-verify just as soon as you sign an employment contract...

Not sure how California employers deal with state laws prventing e-verify when they want to work on Government contracts which require it.

Recently went through the e-verify/I-9 process in Arizona, what a nightmare. Also had to do it for subconsultants on a (government) project and that was really tough.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Lawyers made it this way!!!

 

[beej67]

I once had an employee, probably my best employee, arrested by the department of homeland security, imprisoned for four months, and deported to Pakistan, all because he had the balls to sue Tom Ridge for holding up his citizenship application after 9/11.

I knew none of this before I hired him. He just disappeared one day, and I lost two full days of work running around playing Magnum PI trying to figure out what happened.

Not sure how relevant that story is, but I just wanted to share.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[JedClampett]

Maybe I'm being contrarian, but when an employer hires you, it's a big investment. There's salary, training, HR, paperwork, etc. And I'm of the opinion that there's a rough correlation of how someone conducts their personal life and how they perform at their job. It's not perfect, but it's my opinion.
So do you blame an potential employer for doing a credit check on a future employee? If the employee has a 200 credit rating, maybe there's a legitimate reason. Temporary health problem, student loans or whatever. Ot maybe the future employee is careless in their personal life in a way that might either reflect on their job performance or impact it directly (phone calls from collection agencies, wage garnishments, other distractions).
It's a tool. No one should hire based on credit ratings, but if they're stunningly bad, the question should be put out there.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Jed,

You run into serious issues of profiling with that attitude when it comes to hiring. Take for example the person whose spouse got sick, causing them to lose their house and trashing their credit rating. They may be an awesome worker, but you refused them a job based upon their credit rating... bad idea from a legal standpoint. Financial maturity should only come into play when the position involves control of money (embezzlement) and/or control of state secrets (bribery).


Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com