What's like to work at renowned firms (SOM, TT, Arup, etc.) vs work at smaller ones? 2

[MonsieurR2]

Hello people,

I'm currently a SE graduate with lots of questions about the profession, and I was hoping you could share your experiences working at big renowned firms vs working in smaller ones. How do they compare in terms of workflow, environment, culture, etc.? Where do you learn more? Which one do you prefer?

Cheers.

 

[JedClampett]

Had a buddy who worked for Skidmore a while back. The structural engineers were, to say it nicely, expendable. He worked late one night to get out a big project. They rewarded him the next day by laying him off for lack of work.
You've got to love that glamour of a big Architectural firm! You get to work on big buildings!
Maybe it's changed. Of course it might of changed for the worse.

 

[CBSE]

Haven't worked at a really big firm, but have friends that have and do. I own a small firm. I like the smaller firms as well. The atmosphere is much more relaxed, you don't have to deal with the red tape of a big corporation, and your employers tend to be a little more understanding of circumstances. You also may have a better opportunity of becoming a partner in a smaller firm eventually.

Depends on what excites you in the end. Do you want to be a number in a company doing very large and sometimes prestigious projects, or do you want to work in a smaller company where the variety is endless and your relationships are more personal.

 

[bridgebuster]

At a large firm you know you'll get paid every two weeks.
At a small firm you know who you are working for.

My best job was with a small bridge outfit (BTW - I got paid every two weeks & the owner was there every day). We did several prestigious projects. It was a great place to learn and everyone cared about the projects. Through a number of sales & mergers I'm now with a very large company. The pluses: I get paid every two weeks; I have access to a wealth of technical information - codes, standards, specs, books, etc. BUT, in the 9 years I've been here I really haven't worked on anything prestigious (technically challenging yes but prestigious no); little interaction with the local management; on most projects the quality is mediocre; all the management cares about is 40 billable hours on the time sheet.

 

[Once20036]

Personally, I started out in an urban market and have since moved to a more suburban firm. The first isn't one of the prestigious firms that you name, but I think that my experiences might be applicable. Ultimately, it all comes down to what you want out of life personally and professionally.

- In the urban environment, it was lots of late nights, huge stress, and projects that I could be proud of. Once in a lifetime type stuff that I still smile thinking back on (10 years later...). I could always count on every day being different. Ultimately, it consumed my life. I was stressed out when I got home, working holidays and weekends, a thinking about work 24-7. There was no appreciation in the office, just the crack of a whip and the fear of being reprimanded.

- In my current position, its more of a large family firm. There are still long hours, but much more appreciation for the work that I do and much less stress. Work stays at work and I can enjoy my nights and weekends. Most projects are *very* similar to previous projects and not much to talk about when family asks what I`m doing these days.

Overall, I`m glad for the first experience. It was a great place to learn, to get experience, and to get started. I`m also glad that I left and found something new.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[dik]

Jed has it pretty much summed up... large firms are indifferent and cost driven. I work at a large firm and we do not have a current issue of the National Building Code of Canada, simply because it hasn't been officially adopted by the Province of Manitoba. There is a lot more bureaucracy and 'silly' programs that have to be completed.

Dik

 

[JAE]

Working at a large firm: Hell
Working at a smaller firm: Heaven

Of course I've never worked at a large firm but where I have worked it has been heaven...so why risk it?

Ripped off Hollywood quote from Field of Dreams:
[blue]"Is...is this heaven?"
"No...it's a small independent structural engineering firm."
"I could have sworn it was heaven".[/blue]



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[canwesteng]

My experience at a larger firm has been that the work seems more interesting, and it certainly helps you learn a lot. Downside is it's impersonal, job security is terrible, and my work life balance sucks. You've got to take the best opportunity you have but I'd pick a smaller firm given the choice.

 

[rb1957]

In a big firm I expect you'd get the chance to work on big projects, but you'd be a small cog in a big machine. Unfortunately, the big "glory" projects could get cherry picked by the "higher ups" so the "lesser mortals" get the drudge work.

In a smaller firm I expect you'd see smaller projects, less glamourous. But I'd expect you'd have exposure to many different design problems/issues because you wouldn't have the specialists who deal with these "interesting" aspects. But the smaller firm would possible attract more drudge work projects (beneath the contempt of the large firms).

In a big firm I expect you'd have more training and "boon-doddles" as these expenses are easier to "hide", less for a small firm.

A small firm would be (typically) more informal than a large one ... less bureaucracy, less "silly" programs, more flexibility. But if you don't get on personally with the guys near you (if one guy is louder and more opinionated) then this becomes harder to ignore and avoid.

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

 

[atrizzy]

I'll offer up a different viewpoint. I work for a very large Canadian engineering firm. My previous job was a medium sized (70 people or so) but very well respected Struct Eng firm in my city.

My current big company job offers:
OT (hourly) pay over 40 hrs/week
5% matching retirement savings contributions
Stock ownership plans
4 weeks vacation
a banked time/earned days off program
Anonymity (if you want it) and recognition (if you earn it)
but also
Tedious bureaucracy and paperwork for every task
LOTS of 'dead weight' and people not pulling their own

My previous medium sized 'glory' type company offered:
A 'company culture' of working 50 hour weeks
Absolutely 0 downtime
No overtime pay whatsoever
Significantly lower salary
No benefits such as outlined above
Tons of responsibility
but also
Working on architecturally significant projects
providing a fantastic 'trial by fire' training ground

Maybe it's just me, but my experience is exactly the opposite. My big company job is quite cushy.

 

[JedClampett]

mapostu, another thing to think about. During these times, there's no guarantees that any size company won't get bought out by a larger company. Heck, if CH2M, for pity's sake, can be bought by Jacobs, what's to say your mom and pop or huge firm won't get swallowed up. So you've started at a small company and end up in a huge bureaucracy. Some CEO says, "this firm has annoyed me, crush them!" and you're a part of Halliburton.
If you have a choice, do what interests and challenges you. A big firm has advantages, a small firm has advantages.

 

[Shotzie]

I work at a small company and really enjoy it. I've found that a lot of things that I work on require me to learn how to design based on forums, textbooks, online examples or trial and error. The employees at the company are all fairly young, therefore we don't have the old structural guru serving as the mentor. I feel that everyone here is really invested in what we do and we're rewarded as a result. It also means that company golf days and BBQs are really enjoyable as everyone enjoys socializing about things other than work.

Also, I've been fortunate enough to take compassionate leaves for as long as I've needed with no penalty (besides missing paychecks). That's a huge thing when you need it.

 

[WARose]

There are pros and cons with each.....and both can have some of the same pitfalls. With the smaller firms you tend to learn a lot very quickly because of the faster pace. (I.e. because of smaller projects.) The bigger places typically offer better pay and more help. A big drawback with a lot of smaller companies is the fact you may have to wind up being the designer, estimator, scheduler, etc. At the bigger places, you (theoretically) get help there.

Both have their politics. In fact, the worst place I've ever worked at in my life as far as politics go had to be the first outfit I worked at coming out of college. They didn't even have a dozen people and it was insane: half of them were the owner's family. You made one of them mad.....they all got mad at you. A close second (as far as politics go) had to be the last large EPC outfit I worked at. The PM on a job I was a discipline lead on (who wouldn't stop complaining about the fact I didn't beat the scheduled issue dates by a week- no, that isn't a typo) managed to get arrested while down at a job site. (Off-site. Once for DUI. The second time for indecent exposure.) And in spite of that (to management) he was still their golden boy.....and I was (somehow) the bad guy. So what I am saying is: you aren't safe from politics anywhere.

If I had to pick a place (if I wasn't working for myself as I am now): it would be a good sized company that does industrial design. (And keep my fingers crossed.)

 

[MotorCity]

Disadvantages of a monster firm: a lot of red tape, procedures, bureaucracy, and time spent on "stupid" stuff (read: stuff we do not related to our job or productivity)

Advantages of a monster firm: They don't ask questions when you need to spend $500 on the latest code

 

[Pinwards]

I worked at one of the big ones back in the early 2000's, that had over 30,000 employees at the time. I knew it wasn't for me when my weekly timecard got rejected because I signed it in blue ink, instead of the black ink that the company required! I couldn't believe that one, even the IRS doesn't get that petty.

I've worked for small (one ~5 people, another about 15 that grew to 30 while I was there), that very large one above, and now work for a medium sized (300 company wide, about 30 in our office) company. In my experience you get very pigeon-holed in large organizations. On the other hand, when they are too small you end up doing everything, even the menial tasks that don't require a PE, like answering the phone and making your own copies. I think I found my forever home now at the medium-sized firm, where i have a level of responsibility that I'm comfortable with, have a team of support staff to hand off pieces of the work to and to take care of the administrative tasks, and a number of senior engineers to consult with when I hit an obstacle. It doesn't hurt that my current boss is very supportive and always has my back, plus the company is employee-owned, so I am a (very small) part of the ownership and have that as a second source of retirement income for later. Different strokes for different folks though, some would prefer to be a small cog in a big machine, but it's not for me.

#

 

[MonsieurR2]

Thanks for you answers guys!

 

[JoshPlumSE]

Viewing this from the perspective of a newly minted MS in Engineering, my thoughts are this:

Working in a large firm:
[ul]
[li]Chances are the job will be more secure.[/li]
[li]Chances are the benefits will be better.[/li]
[li]They may have a defined mentorship or training program to go through.[/li]
[li]This may help to tech you basic engineering more quickly.[/li]
[li]Less likely to be stuck doing menial work. So, you may learn basic engineering more quickly[/li]
[li]Longer time before you are given a chance to really take responsibility for your work or manage projects. So, longer time before you know what it truly means to be a EOR or lead engineer. [/li]
[/ul]

Working in a small firm:
[ul]
[li]How good of a job it is will ENTIRELY depend on who you're working for / who the owner is.[/li]
[li]Chance at profit sharing.[/li]
[li]At first, you will do whatever grunt work that needs to be done. May mean you do CADD for a while rather than engineering.[/li]
[li]Responsibilities will likely increase quickly.[/li]
[li]Chance at earning an ownership stake if you can help grow the firm.[/li]
[/ul]

Personally, I think both paths can work out wonderfully. Lots of people start off with larger firms and then move onto smaller firms (or start their own) down the road. Not as many people do the opposite.

 

[KootK]

Lots of people start off with larger firms and then move onto smaller firms (or start their own) down the road. Not as many people do the opposite.

This is accurate and important in my opinion. One of the reasons for it is that, frankly, big firms tend not to respect small firm experience which will tie into my next comments.

In terms of project coolness and compensation, I think that a principal-ish gig at a big firm is pretty great. The trick is getting there, getting there in a timely fashion, and knowing when to call it a loss. Lower level positions at these firms can be pretty grueling as others have noted. You need to climb the ladder fast enough that your passion doesn't die on the vine first. If this winds up being your goal, I would:

1) Make the big company job your first job.
2) Bust your butt while you're young, have lots of energy, and relatively few commitments. Keep in mind that business development and project management matter much more than technical ability.
3) Make principal in ~10 years but know that you're on the short list by year six. If you can't tell by year six, you're not on the list.
4) If principal isn't going to happen, pull out early enough that you can move on to a smaller outfit, or your own, and achieve an equity stake in a reasonable time frame.

Getting to the top at one of the big firms is trickier than it might seem. It takes:

1) Excellence.
2) Effort.
3) Fortuitous timing.
4) Somebody with some power to recognize and believe in you.

Not all of that can be willed into existence. And not all of it is apportioned fairly.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[canwesteng]

I could not echo Kootk's point 2 enough - if you want to climb the ladder you need to have good BD skills, engineering won't get you very far at a big company.

 

[JAE]

JoshPlum - just cannot agree with some of your comments re larger firms:
-Chances are the job will be more secure.
[blue]I seem to have heard of more engineers getting laid off at the larger firms - big mass layoffs when large projects get done or are not awarded when earlier anticipated.
I've worked in a mid-to-small firm setting most of my career - never came close to getting laid off. For smaller firms, the effort to hire is a significant and carefully considered decision as one or two persons means a lot to the overall bottom line much more than in a large firm percentage-wise. So it follows that a larger firm can hire and fire as needed while a smaller firm is more careful.[/blue]

Chances are the benefits will be better.
[blue]Financially I would agree.[/blue]

They may have a defined mentorship or training program to go through.
This may help to tech you basic engineering more quickly.
[blue] True for the possible programs but you also have more of a chance of working with bad engineers while in a smaller firm you would know the actual engineers you would always work with. You can't always verify this during the interview but in my case, I hand my prospective employees resumes of the engineers they will work with so they can see the quality and experience of those who will be directly mentoring them. Not so in a larger firm. Also - formal mentoring programs vs. small office direct mentorship from a good engineer? No comparison.[/blue]

Less likely to be stuck doing menial work. So, you may learn basic engineering more quickly
[blue] A lot of engineers I've ever known who went to work with larger firms have gotten stuck doing menial repetitive work. In a small office we get exposed to conceptual designs, framing layouts, scope and fee estimates, contract preparation, direct client contacts and communications, specification writing, design in every material, design in every area (commercial, industrial, forensic, educational, etc.), design associated with construction issues and errors, - I could go on. One buddy of mine in a larger firm did retaining walls for two years.[/blue]

Longer time before you are given a chance to really take responsibility for your work or manage projects. So, longer time before you know what it truly means to be a EOR or lead engineer.
[blue]Agree - this is why a smaller firm experience makes for very good engineers.[/blue]



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