When to move on? 1

[Lion06]

I want to preface this question by stating that I love my job, and the company I work for. I don't have someone looking over my shoulder asking what I'm doing constantly.

That being said, I've been with the company for 3.5 years and there was a 7.5% pay cut across the board about six months ago. I'm not sure exactly why as I haven't seen my hours drop off at all. I'm consistently putting in 44-48 hours per week at the office (I drive 10 hours a week - an hour one way). It leaves little time for family, and I'm starting to become disillusioned (did I even use that word properly? I think so). I'll be sitting for the PE soon enough, and when I've passed it I'll be making a LOT less money than I expected to be making at that point in my career. Right now I'm making about what I would expect a fresh grad to come in at.

How are most other offices? I would appreciate input from everyone, but especially structural guys. Do you breathe down your employees necks? Does your boss look over your shoulder constantly asking for stuff? How many hours do you typically work in a week? I know a little extra effort is needed sometimes, but to consistently work 45 hours for 40 hours of pay (a low scale for 40 hours on top of that) gets to be a drag.

I know I sound like I'm whining, but I feel much better now!!

 

[jberg]

I am not sure about other structural engineering companies, but the company I work for has been on 32 hour workweeks since April. Many of the structural engineering companies in the area have the same issues. I am now back full-time (40+ hours per week), but that is only because I am working on a project with a short time frame.

In April, I passed the PE and I have not received a raise yet, but with the economy and knowing friends in engineering that have been unemployed for over a year, I am happy to have a full-time job that pays better than unemployment. Now when the economy turns around for us, I expect I should be compensated for the added responsibility of having a PE license.

Currently, I spend about as much time per week in the car as you, StrlEIT; a little less than 10 hours per week. It does affect my personal life, as my wife and I would like to start a family. We want to be closer to work and closer to family before we start a family, though.

Everyone talks salary and I feel that engineers should be paid for their talents, I also really enjoy my work (most days at least) and would probably do it for less than I am paid now. Now don't get me wrong (or tell my employer), I like making money, but you need to enjoy the work as well as the workplace. For almost 6 months, I worked at a company where I hated going to work everyday. My supervisor and I did not see eye to eye and that led to many arguments and ultimately my dismissal from the company. Being let go was the best thing that happened to me.

Well, I probably rambled on too much, but I do hope it helps, StrlEIT. Sometimes I find just ranting to a fellow engineer really helps me feel better.

JWB

 

[weab]

I am a structural engineer. For me, it comes down to priorities. You say you love your job and your company. To me, that's quite a lot. I love my company, but I think I could earn more money elsewhere. But for me, I am satisfied with my pay because I love my company.

I wasn't always happy. I now know in my heart that my work ethic wasn't good. Once I really started enjoying my work, I became a better engineer and began getting compensated more appropriately. How is your work ethic? Be honest.

I don't know where you live, but a pay cut is not unheard of in this economy. Apparently you are on a fixed salary. I once worked for one company like that, but in the south I believe that it is typical to pay straight time for overtime for design engineers. Your situation is standard for large companies that hire mostly project managers, or in plants. However the salary is usually satisfying.

I have never seen the PE to significantly raise a salary. You'd think so, but it just isn't the case. Get over it.

My job keeps me busy and I always have deadlines and things to do. I have some people working for me, and I have certain expectations. I don't think I'm breathing down their necks, but I give them realistic deadlines, usually. If there is a deadline, then there is no need to breath down someone's neck, just meet the agreed to deadline. My company is good about this.

I work in an office with large projects so we can plan on 40 hour weeks, in general. When we get behind, we work OT (and get paid for it!). If you work for a small company with small projects with short time frames, then you are stuck. I did that for 3 years. I felt like I was a fireman all the time, but it was the nature of the work I was in- not my employer's fault. When you were hired, were you told that this was a 40-45 hr/week position? In general I work whatever the project needs. Working a 4-9's and a 4 schedule allows me to work a few hours late on Friday's as necessary without a big influence on family life.

Just so you know, I don't recommend this. But changing jobs has given me some of the largest raises of my career. After your first few years, salaries can swing wildly among guys with the same level of experience. Your coworker who graduated the same year as you may get a totally different salary. Companies will pay to get you from another company.

I'm not sure if I helped much. The fact that you say you love your company complicates things. The company I work for now, and want to retire from, is one that I quit earlier. There are a number of people here like me who came back to work for a second time. I feel very fortunate and I would never want to tell you to leave such a company. However, you don't sound happy. You love your work, but maybe you don't LOVE your company when all things are considered.

It just occured to me! That fireman position I mention earlier, I felt almost the same as you - the pay (fixed salary with few raises), the hours, and I thought I liked the work. I now know what I would do if I were you but you have to come to that decision on your own.

Good Luck!

 

[abusementpark]

If there is a better option out there for you, then why not explore. I find it very unacceptable that they slashed your pay and you are still putting in 45 hours of work a week.

Unless you can foresee a long term benefit for sticking it out with this company, why not go ahead test the market?

 

[GregLocock]

I think most engineers find that it is unusual to get really large increments in pay once they are part of the furniture and have hit about 30 if they stay in the same job (up to 30ish you should be getting large annual increments as you hopefully rapidly from being a total noob).

So you either move into a more senior position in your present company, or move elsewhere.

I don't know what to do about 45 hour weeks, perhaps a bit of backbone might be required, obviously if you do it without complaining week on week then it will continue. Nice for them, not so hot for you.

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[ajack1]

Whilst this is a bit of a generalisation most employees or companies that constantly have someone breathing down their necks do so because they fail to deliver.

All most employers and customers want is something delivered on time on budget to an acceptable standard with the minimum amount of fuss. If that is done there is no good reason to be on anyone’s back.

With regard to the pay cut and no drop in hours, maybe I can shed some light on that. We have seen our charge out rate drop by about 25% in the last year, we have not done this by choice, it is something we have had to do to still win work and we have had two customers go into administration owning us money we will never see again.

At the end of the day you have to balance the books and many of the overheads are fixed so this leaves two options. You either really scale down the business lay off people and reduce overheads, move to cheaper premises etc or you give EVERYONE a pay cut and work the same hours or even longer hours, to reduce pay and hours would simply send the company out of business. Sure it sucks but what other options are there?

With regard to the travelling time well really that is your choice, whilst I am sure there are very good reasons for living an hour away from work, great location, close to family, good schools etc it remains your choice. Maybe the company would allow you to work from home one or two days a week or put in four 11 hour shifts and have a long weekend?

At the end of the day we all do what we do and where we do it for a variety of reasons and we are all free to walk away to pastures new. Only you can decide what is best for you.

 

[Lion06]

Thanks for the input, guys. I appreciate it!

 

[B16A2]

Based on your replies to this thread

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=252093&page=1

Money shouldn't be an issue right? If you've changed your mind, then I'd start looking around so you can actually get a return on your educational investment.

45 hours is typical. I dont know of any structural firm working bare 40's...only the corp of engineers. Most places I know are pushing 50, but nobody complains because they're just happy to have work. I was just at the ACI convention in New Orleans and the general consensus is that commercial building has nearly stopped.

I got about 20k raise for SEI, SEII. If they dont give you any raise for licensure, IMHO would be a game ender for me and time to move on.

 

[rowingengineer]

StructuralEIT,
I hate to sound like old man river, but you sound like me a few years ago. I was at a company for 4 years they were good to me. Then I got an offer from another company, a few more $$$$, and I was a bit disillusioned (had just come off a 4 month stretch of 60-80hr week). So i moved on, to the better paying job, I enjoyed this place until the GFC, when they let 60% of the staff go. I got to stay but worked my ass off, and had to take on a few other people old jobs, when i got to site there were issues with safety, and I decided to quite because my boss wouldn't back me up on a few things. Turns out that I’m a bad judge of employers and I know for certain that my old boss would have backed me to the hilt. Thus the moral of the storey is, you can’t buy good management, and if they are good managers they will be open to discussing you pay.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it

 

[photoengineer]

StructuralEIT,

My company pays me overtime when I work beyond 40 hours. Most engineers aren't that lucky, but keep that in mind when you work an additional 5 or 10 hours for free.

The government doesn't pay you OT, but allows you to bank the OT as vacation time so you can use it later.

 

[BigInch]

When the pay gets cut, when to move on is, "As soon as possible". In the meantime, you need to get a couple of things clear, very CLEAR. You should know the exact reason your pay was cut, clearly seeing the evidence in billing or stock prices, etc. and agree that such an extreme measure was appropriate and necessary for the good of all. You should also know exactly what conditions will precipitate a reinstatement of previous wages and if there will be any prospect of seeing an increase to make up for the cut you're getting now after conditions improve. If you're agreeable, stay on. If there is something that doesn't ring true, don't waste any more time there. Change jobs and/or industry, if you need to.

Listen. There are many more companies out there than just one that you will love working for. Maybe even more than your present employer. Play the field while you can.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

 

[Lion06]

Just to address a couple things mentioned in the post.

1) My work ethic is very good.

2) My employment letter stated my slalary and "approximately 40 hours per week".
3) I don't have anyone breathing down my neck
4) I realize the commute is my decision

Regarding 1) - I've never had this brought up as an issue to me, and I don't believe it's a problem at all.

Regarding 2) - To me, "approximately 40 hours per week" doesn't mean "45 hours every week".

Regarding 3) - I love this part of the job. It seems to be true in most offices, but that was a concern I had regarding moving because I haven't worked for any other engineering firms.

Regarding 4) - I recognize this as my decision, and it hasn't become an issue until reccently. That, on its own, would never cause me to leave. When I combine it with consistent 45 hour workweeks, and a pay cut, it makes me think twice.

Just a couple other things. When I said that I'll be making much less when I get a PE than I expected to be making, I wasn't implying that a PE should get me a huge raise. All I meant is that I would have 4 years of raises. As it stand, I'll have 2 years of raises, 1 year of a cut, and 1 year of nothing. That essentially amounts to less than a single raise over 4 years. Believe me when I say that it's important to love your job. I also am not in this just for money. That being said, I do want to be appropriately compensated.

 

[mtu1972]

I have been a structural engineer for a long time and have made 6 job changes over that time. 3 of them were for good salary increases, 1 was a forced "early retirement" due to a corporate takeover downsizing (can't live on $10,500/yr), and 2 were to get out of negative downward trending environments.

I have been both salaried and hourly. Some companies pay OT after 40 and another was after 42. In both cases where I was strictly salaried, I always felt that I was being abused. If you are conscientious and do your job and meet your deadlines - you are rewarded with more work. Because of being with consultants, I kept track of my time and know that I was averaging well over 50 hours per week.

Meanwhile some of your contemporaries make plans for every weekend, can't meet schedules, etc. and they continue to get by with 40 +/- hours per week. When raises came, there was little or no difference in the increases doled out.

Dividing the year-end bonus by your extra hours always showed me what I was really worth to them - not much!

My preference is hourly for those reasons. I have no problem putting in extra time when it is needed, but I want to be compensated for it. As was stated above - now is not a good time. We are also on reduced hours and coming into this time of year with no major projects does not bode well for the future.

Good Luck with your decision. It was never easy - but when it is your choice rather than theirs it is somewhat more palatable.

GJC

 

[photoengineer]

If you work for a place that bills clients by the hour, 7.5% decrease in pay means (in my opinion) I work 7.5% fewer hours.

Unless the company changed the billing rate (unlikely), there shouldn't be a reason to decrease your pay if you are still charging the same number of billable hours to the customer. Concerns about lack of business in the future isn't a good reason to cut pay today (again, in my opinion.)

 

[GregLocock]

I was just checking my history of pay rises.

When I switched companies I got 30%, 0% +a car, 30%-car, 21%+car

Needless to say my pay rises while staying with a company were nothing like that, tho to be fair my average raise has been 4.5% for the last 10 years (that surprised me, ain't compound interest grand?) while practically sitting in the same seat.

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[ornerynorsk]

There are a lot of companies that are using the present economy as an excuse to readjust their bottom lines, so to speak. If you are at a firm that is actually staying busy, that should not be an excuse, as one of the previous posters mentioned.

It all comes down to doing what you feel is the right thing. Biginch is right though, they should have the seeds to come out and say exactly WHY your pay was cut, and not just a lame "pin it on the economy".

Good luck, it's a tough spot to be in and I wish you well.

 

[Lion06]

We had a meeting about it a while back and one of the principals said that it had to do with getting certain "ratios" back in line with what the banks want to see.

 

[vc66]

They probably want to get the debt-to-equity under 1.

Which means that they're going to bank more cash, so they can say "See! We can pay down our debt, if we go bankrupt!"

So the bank will be able to take more of a risk on them.

Yours isn't a publicly traded company, is it StructuralEIT?

V

 

[Lion06]

It's not publicly held. It also does very well financially (as far as I can tell, anyway). I mean, I know what my charge out rates are, and it's about 3.5x my salary.

 

[PeterStock]

If your charge out rates were that before you got the pay cut the you were sc--ed. I would think that 3.5 is heigher than most.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services

http://www.infotechpr.net