When to move on? 1

[Lion06]

I want to preface this question by stating that I love my job, and the company I work for. I don't have someone looking over my shoulder asking what I'm doing constantly.

That being said, I've been with the company for 3.5 years and there was a 7.5% pay cut across the board about six months ago. I'm not sure exactly why as I haven't seen my hours drop off at all. I'm consistently putting in 44-48 hours per week at the office (I drive 10 hours a week - an hour one way). It leaves little time for family, and I'm starting to become disillusioned (did I even use that word properly? I think so). I'll be sitting for the PE soon enough, and when I've passed it I'll be making a LOT less money than I expected to be making at that point in my career. Right now I'm making about what I would expect a fresh grad to come in at.

How are most other offices? I would appreciate input from everyone, but especially structural guys. Do you breathe down your employees necks? Does your boss look over your shoulder constantly asking for stuff? How many hours do you typically work in a week? I know a little extra effort is needed sometimes, but to consistently work 45 hours for 40 hours of pay (a low scale for 40 hours on top of that) gets to be a drag.

I know I sound like I'm whining, but I feel much better now!!

 

[rowingengineer]

Mine is currently 5, I think 3 is the norm.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it

 

[KENAT]

While I'm happy to believe your employers are a$$holes, I can think of one vaguely reasonable reason for pay cut.

Maybe they are having trouble charging out at their usual rate, if there's more competition are they having to drop what they charge?

However, if their charge our rate hasn't changed the argument that they are screwing you seems stronger.

We had a pay cut for a while, and certainly no across the board raises this year, but our sales were down.

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[Lion06]

I can't say for sure, but I don't believe our charge out rates have changed. The structural side of our firm works with very prestigious architects, and we rarely get work that we "bid" on. If one of the architects that we work for gets a job and we have the ability to handle the workload, we get the job. We have a similar relationship with several universities, where we are the SER, regardless of who is doing the work or who the architect is. This is true because of the quality of service that we provide.

That being said, we have a few other "sides" of the company that aren't doing as well. One of the owners loves design/build and is trying to start up a construction company within the firm. I think we may be subsidizing (some of) these other branches of the company.

Either way, my biggest concern with moving is how different offices can be. I feel pretty confident that I could get a 20% raise pretty easily by moving, but I'm most scared of having some crazy boss always looking over my shoulder, or not getting the professional development that I get now, or not having the freedoms that I have now (this last part is mostly related to making things like spreadsheets that are not job-specific provided I am keeping on top of my work).

 

[Ron]

SEIT...I've read your posts in a variety of forums and they lead me to believe you have your head screwed on right. Technically, you're very proficient. Your solutions are generally well constructed and technically correct. It's obvious you enjoy your work.

That being said, you need to take care of yourself as well. Greg nailed it (as usual). You're wallpaper now. They'll take you for granted.

Explore your options. Don't leave unless you really find something better, since you're satisfied there.

You are experiencing salary compression. Talk to them honestly about it.

I assume they know your value. Tell them that if you left and they hired a new engineer at your salary, they would be behind. It will cost them from $10,000 to $25,000 to hire a new engineer. Have them put that into your salary and you and the company are ahead.

Good luck.

 

[KirbyWan]

SEIT,

Just a thought, have you considered keeping the job, but moving closer? I know there are a lot issues here, like where your spouse works, where your kids go to school etc. But if you are driving an hour to work that's a lot of money in gas and time with the family lost. I have a half hour drive to work and I've thought about moving closer.

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

 

[Japher]

I agree with Kirby. It doesn't sound like it's the job that is the problem, but it's your work/life balance. With the job market the way it is, now isn't the best time to be looking. So, looking at options to fix the balance might be a better idea than quitting; i.e. working from home a couple days, maybe 4 10s or 12s instead of 5 8s or 10s?

 

[IJR]

Just like Ron observed, you are very proficient. Have you considered doing freelance in your free time?. You will feel better with your knowledge and there will be money coming in.

You are still luckier than me, I have an egomaniac boss who refuses to credit anyone with anything including pay, and you are not allowed to talk pay. Problem is I love my job and choose to ignore the boss. a few freelancing helped a bit.


respects
ijr

 

[Lion06]

Ron-
Thanks for your kind words - it's much appreciated.

Kirby-
I've considered moving closer, but we had a hard time trying to sell our house before. On top of that, my oldest son would not like to move right now as he just started middle school. My daughters wouldn't care, neither of them are in school yet.

Japher-
I might talk to them about working from home a day a week. Working 4 - 12's isn't an option. Our clients expect us to be available when they need us. Being out a day a week would not be a good thing.

IJR-
Don't you need to be licensed to do freelance work? I'm only an EIT right now. I can't take the PE exam until next October, and I'm seriously considering waiting until April of 2011 to take the new, 16 hour SE exam.

 

[abusementpark]

Don't most firms not allow you to freelance/moonlight?

 

[apsix]

"Don't most firms not allow you to freelance/moonlight?"

Unless you have signed a contract stating as much I would assume that working freelance is OK.

It's unreasonable to require salary sacrifice for the good of the company, and also limit the opportunity for you to make a decent income.

As to moving house for the sake of a low paid job; the cost of selling, buying and then moving will be lost, with no opportunity to recoupe except for reduced travel cost.
I know you will have the extra time, but you would be better off insisting on working the 'about 40 hrs'.

Living in a city/country where structural engineers are still in demand, it is difficult to appreciate the position that you are in. If they tried that stuff on me I'd be out the door straight into another job.

 

[mtu1972]

StructuralEIT -

It's easy to see you're struggling with this - let me add one thing. Working for high profile Architects on what are probably great projects would always have been my dream job.

2 of my jobs were with small consultants that worked for Architects and I worked on many neat buildings. With a design-build industrial contractor I worked on some large structures but the buildings were blah. With a corporate engineering group I got to work on several greenfield plants and did the engineering (site civil and structural), quasi-architectural design, construction management, etc. which was very rewarding.

There have been 3 jobs in 9 years since being downsized out of the corporate engineering group and the quality of the projects has mostly been mundane industrial additions and modifications.

Lots of jobs will help pay the bills, but being part of design teams on great buildings was and will always be the highlight of my career.


PS: A billing rate of 3.5 x's is way higher than anywhere I have been (2.25 to 2.75). If that is a flat mark-up for everyone - OK. If you are lumped into groups that are billed by job description, i.e. "project design engineer" etc., then you are underpaid.

GJC

 

[PeterStock]

If an engineer moonlights and something breaks, his company may be liable, that is why you should check with them to make sure it is ok. This does not need to be on a project by project basis.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services

http://www.infotechpr.net

 

[Ron]

SEIT...Moonlighting should wait until you are licensed. I have no doubt you'll nail the exam....take the general PE or SE1 first...you can always do the full Structural later...just get licensed...then you have a marketable attribute that doesn't require significant discussion or selling.

When you decide to moonlight, you have to tell your employer. If they do not allow moonlighting, then you have to decide...give it up or leave.

I did moonlighting throughout my tenure with a major international engineering firm...it was a condition of the acquisition of my small specialty firm by the "big boys"...I didn't compete with my employer...this was a single client that I had maintained for many years and they would not sign the required contracts of the larger corporation...yet they were willing to indemnify me as a single practitioner...I was gratified by their action...they remain a very favored client after 25 years.

Interestingly enough, when I had been back with the large international firm for about 10 years (moonlighting all that time), someone within the firm submitted one of my structural calculation packages to the corporate office, telling them that I was moonlighting! Well, since the corporate office already knew that, it was a "so what" event! The submitters were trying to get me fired...it didn't work. At that time I was a vice-president and senior principal within the firm. It pissed off the submitter that he/she couldn't get me fired for their "revelation".

My point is simply...be careful with moonlighting...full disclosure is necessary and the ethical thing to do.

 

[photoengineer]

PeterStock,

First of all, if a person moonlights on the side, their primary employer does not become liable in the United States. If you know of a incident where this wasn't the case, please post a link or cite a case here.

The employer being responsible for the employee's actions at home is a common theme here on eng-tips.com, but I've never read of a case where this was true.

Ron,

Moonlight should wait until the person is licensed only if the engineer is moonlighting in something that requires a professional engineer's license. A lot of engineers do AutoCAD drafting or solid modeling work in the evenings, and no license is required for this. Giving engineering advice to a client obviously requires a license, but there is lots of engineering-related work that doesn't fall under the scope of an engineer's license.

 

[photoengineer]

By the way, my statement about the employer not assuming liability for moonlighting only applies if the employee uses no company resources in his moonlighting activities. To me, that is the only fair way of doing it. As long as what you do on your own time doesn't use the company resources, I don't see how they can assume liability for your work.

 

[Ron]

photoengineer...a moonlighting employee does not have to use a company's resources to have them pulled into a lawsuit. If the services offered by the moonlighting employee are similar to those offered by the firm, there can be liability by association, thus exposing the firm to liability from a non-client, particularly if the firm knows of the moonlighting activities and condones them.

You're right that non-engineering work can be done without licensing and often with little or no risk. You still have to be careful and know exactly how your state defines "engineering works". Some states define engineering broadly, others more narrowly. Many engineers erroneously believe that only designs with plans constitute engineering that must be signed and sealed. Far, far from the truth. Almost all states define engineering as including statements made in a public realm, recommendations given on structures or construction, evaluations of construction, structures, pavements, or materials, or opinions of same as engineering works. There's sometimes a fine line between CAD and engineering design.

 

[Lion06]

Moonlighting is definitely not even a consideration without a license.

 

[IJR]

SEIT, I am interested and so pls allow me to punch in some experience.

Since no freelancing possible, money is out for now, so lets make sure you dont wear yourself out, as you buy time.

Relegate some work to others, IF POSSIBLE.

Your boss or whoever superior might temporarily find it weird at first, but over time you will be accepted so.

It works for me. I usually do only some jobs(I refrain to say important ones, but sometimes it works like that), politely relegate some to others. At least you will have time for family. Your value in the company might even go up a bit.

On a more general scale, try to tune yourself a bit. And with that clear brain you have, should be easy.

Some smart old brain(an economist) said, "The more a worker churns out products, the cheaper he/she gets".

Sorry if this is out of tune.

respects
ijr

 

[BigInch]

I think your billout rate tells a lot of a mostly hidden story. That rate range is quite high. I would think that, if it is apparently due to high costs other than employee salaries, the owners should take a good hard look at reducing those rather than trying to run off their best employees. You might offer to help them in their effort to reduce those costs by looking for office space deals closer to your home. Invite a commercial space broker in to see the CEO. Tell him you've found somebody better than a banker to talk to and he'll be there at 12:30. Just a proactive idea to think about.

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[HgTX]

Regarding breathing down necks, that may be more a matter of individual managers' styles than corporate policy. Which means that it can change with a change in management. I'm all for considering corporate culture when choosing a job, but keep in mind that the culture can shift unpleasantly with no warning.

Hg

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