Where are all of the master tradesman? 18

[curiousmechanical]

Hello Everyone,

Background:

I have been working as a mechanical design engineer at a small (<100 employees) OEM for a little over four years now. During this time, I have observed a disappointing trend and would like to hear other engineers’ thoughts on the matter.

Description:

While in college, I imagined a working life analogous to that of any apprentice. I pictured a world filled with experienced tradesman - engineers who have mastered their skills after many years of experience. I was truly looking forward to working alongside such people and I was eager to learn all that I could.

Upon entering the workforce, I eventually learned that few engineers have actually mastered their trades. In fact, more shockingly, many seem to lack even the most basic fundamental knowledge and skills. I find this very disappointing. In addition, I have also noticed a trend of sloppy and poor workmanship.

Intermediate Questions:

Why have so few engineers mastered their trades? Why don’t people care about quality? Why don’t people seem to take pride in what they do?

Theories:

I have noticed that quality is a falsely claimed priority. Companies like to say that they “take pride in producing a quality product,” but I have trouble believing them. Not when engineers are told “I don’t care [that the design is incomplete or of poor quality] just release the drawings.” Deadlines and managers pressure engineers to get work done as fast as possible. Quantity seems to be valued in the real world, not quality. Aside from self-respect, there is no incentive (or time) for an engineer to master his or her trade.

Closing Questions:

Is this lack of master tradesman common in engineering? Are there any environments where the quality workmanship of a master tradesman is valued over the high volume/sub par output of the average engineer?

Thank you for reading my rant! I look forward to reading your feedback!

 

[curiousmechanical]

Thank you all for your extremely diverse and valuable feedback! It is fascinating to hear real engineers account for the progression and struggles of the trade. However, I would be lying if I said that your posts did not make this young engineer nervous of the future. In any event, I plan to persevere.

In hope of stirring up further conversation, I would like to expand a little on my original frustrations.

Lack of Training:

In addition to the unwillingness to train, I have noticed that employers often expect an engineer to train oneself. I often educate myself on my personal time, but I do not feel that I am obligated to do so. Instead, I simply realize that it is in my best interest to further educate myself and above all, I enjoy it. However, I cannot stand to see an engineer’s good nature or inherent curiosity being exploited. With that being said, is anyone actually given the time to learn “on the job?” Do most people develop their analytical and technical skills on their own time? It seems to me that everyone wants these pretty FEA plots, but no one wants to take the time to learn how to create them properly (or compare them to manual or experimental results). I truly believe that most people think FEA replaces the need for fundamental analytical skills and knowledge. Scary.

Lack of Quality:

At my workplace, I have been condemned (perhaps with reason) as a perfectionist – for the better or the worse. I admit, I have been known to make a project out of things from time to time, but nonetheless, I feel that few people these days value quality. I have been labeled as “good, but slow” because I take the time to do things right and clean up other peoples mistakes. I believe that others simply appear to work “fast” because they are not doing their jobs completely. Instead, they leave out important details that will become someone else’s problem. I have been “someone else.” Therefore, I feel that it is my duty to be thorough with my work because I know better. Does anyone else have this problem? Of course, I do accept the fact that it very well might just be me. In that case, I am open to a reality check.

Thank you!

 

[GregLocock]

"With that being said, is anyone actually given the time to learn "on the job?" Do most people develop their analytical and technical skills on their own time? It seems to me that everyone wants these pretty FEA plots, but no one wants to take the time to learn how to create them properly"

Yes. In my previous job I booked two hours per fortnight in my calendar to training, defined what my aims were going to be for the year (agreed with my supervisor), and did it, eg learn simulink and develop a filter set and application for a specific purpose that we needed. Sadly I left before the implementation phase, but the idea was there.


Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[rowingengineer]

I "force" my graduate engineers to do on the job learning; only way they can ever get to a point of being helpful. I normally do a deal, they must do 2hrs on the job training per week, learning about concepts that I nominate/mentor them on, we are currently compatibility torsion after just finishing plastic/elastic analysis v’s plastic/elastic sections. I find these to be great topics but you would be surprised how often they would prefer to work on a job then spend 2 hrs studying, hence the forcing part.

I would not be too concerned about being called perfectionist, once you get the experience under your belt you will get faster and have fewer mistakes than others, so preserver ahead. As for you colleges leaving out info for “someone else”, that is there choice, and in good time it will catch-up with them.


When in doubt, just take the next small step.

 

[FrenchCAD]

One thing I notice though amoung all your statements, to which i give alot of credit by the way, is that the master tradesman you're all looking for may not be as far as you think, as there is alot of competence amid people in this forum.

If you are like me, you probably feel lower than those people you started to work with and who where your model or mentor, whatever you wanna call them. But let be realistic, just look at how many stars you give here each week to your fellow comrades, how many problems get a solution every day, how curious you are but also eager to help.

Gentlemen, I do not believe the master tradesman are dead. I agree that some people don't deserve this title, beginning by myself, but some deserve it for sure and some will deserve it with time.

YOU guys are the actual tradesman.

I may be too optimistic, but let think about it anyway

Cyril Guichard
Defense Program Manager
Belgium

 

[oldfieldguy]

Cyril-

Perhaps you're correct, but I'd like to have a just a bit of help carrying the load in this office...

old field guy

 

[thruthefence]

"Boeing is going through something similar with its latest planes, that, likewise, have converted major portions of the structure from aluminum, or titanium, to composites. Everyone is suddenly a noobie there, as well."


I don't really get a warm fuzzy from this trend.

a link, which I am sure is not news to anyone here.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/boeingaerospace/2009565319_boeing30.html

 

[IRstuff]

But, that is all part of the learning process by which those wing designers become the "gray beards," (partly because of the "stress" induced by this type of problem).

Whenever new technologies occur, and they must occur here to meet the ever growing demand for air travel using ever more expensive fuel, people adapt old theories, or form new theories, and some theories wind up being not correct. One hundred years ago, the Wright brothers flew their motorized kite, and survived, but plenty of others died or were injured on the path to the Dreamliner. The fact that they've caught the error before actually flying passengers is actually a testament to care and expertise of the engineers and techs that designed and built the plane.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[thruthefence]

Of course the system "worked" in the since the deficiencies in the structure were identified, but according to the article,(unless I read it wrong) there are already ten of these things built. Is this a case of "getting it to market" expediency overriding engineering decisions?

or is it Hubris?

ever read the Neville Shute novel,
"No Highway" (1948) ISBN 1-84232-273-7 ?

 

[IRstuff]

Sure, but it's still a learning process, where they did something that was never done by them before, and the fact that the wings failed well below their design limits indicates that something was not correctly modeled in the stress analysis.

While it's an expensive lesson, it's a lesson, nonetheless, and the engineers involved will become the experts of the future.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[p14175]

I was lucky in my first two jobs as an engineer to be able to work with older engineers who were master-tradesmen. One in machining, the other in tool design. The first never earned a college degree, but any company would look at his career and consider the lack of a degree to be minor issue. The other was an industrial engineer who fell into tool design because no one else wanted to do it.

After those experiences I find myself back in school learning as much as I can about metal working from yet another master. Plus I am building a hobby machine shop at my house so I can gain more experience.

I don't want to be an engineer who sits at a desk and throws designs over the wall.

 

[FeX32]

Machining some metal is DEFINITELY NOT Engineering.
Type Engineering in google.....


Fe

 

[MikeHalloran]

Figuring out _how_ to machine a part well, or fast, or in some cases at all, IS engineering. Only some of that comes out of books.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[FeX32]

I agree, however the implication was the actual act of doing the machining.


Fe

 

[patprimmer]

I have a friend who insists he is an Engineer because he work as an aircraft engine assembly technician. ie he disassembles jet engines, sends our any parts for testing, replacment or repair as required by the service manual then reassembles exactly how the book says.

Next thing people who shop at Ikea will call themselves engineers because they assembled a coffee table.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[FeX32]

Pat, I would give you 2 stars if I could.



Fe

 

[ctopher]

I have a neighbor that hits the run button on a machine to make thousands of parts a day. He insists he's a 'manufacturing engineer'. I let him have his fun.

Chris
SolidWorks 09, CATIA V5
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

 

[patprimmer]

The annoying part with my friend is he argues the point with design when we are building things.

For example, he insisted that the thrust axis from a propeller on a boat was determined by where the bolts were placed not on the shaft angle.

I even demonstrated that changing the trim angle on an outboard motor changed the trim of the hull although the bolts were not moved. He was not convinced.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[zdas04]

I know a guy who is a "Senior Engineer" because that is what Qwest prints on his business card. He pulls cable for a living.

David

 

[SLTA]

rowingengineer, I sure wish I had a boss like you in my first job. I had a boss who expected me, fresh out of college, to just "know" everything about how to run an entire project - site visits, complete construction documents, not just the structural design. of course there was little to no feedback on the work I did, so I learned little from that job.

thank goodness my subsequent jobs have had a master or two...

 

[DesignerGuy16]

There's a lot to be said about taking charge as a young engineer. If you really want to learn something you have to be proactive about it and always inquisitive. If you don't ask the questions you'll never get a proper answer for anything.

I've never waited for management to bring forward the opportunity for training or learning. I usually bring it up, and I'm always questioning everything I see. Truly the knowledge is there for the taking if you just know where to look, and who to ask.

Now if you're in a position where there's nobody to ask, and management shoots down any chance of training... well I guess you're up a creek without a paddle.

James Spisich
Design Engineer, CSWP