Where can I learn more about UL/CSA/FM and other NRTLs 1

[misterblode]

Hi everyone, I am new to this forum and have found some incredibly helpful information. One thing that I am struggling finding is, where can I learn more about UL/CSA/FM and all other NRTLs? Is there a class that will teach the entire process covering the necessary information for all NRTLs?

I have found a great deal of information that seems to 'scratch the surface' from users on this site, and I am very appreciative of that. My questions is more with respect to what classes can I take, seminars to go to, etc. I have found some seminars from CSA and UL that I can attend, but I am wondering if there is anything more in depth than that? I would like to take as many classes as possible to truly learn how to properly handle these certification bodies.

To give a brief recap of where I stand; I have inherited all of the conformance engineers duties at our company and am in charge of getting new products certified as well as keeping up with old product documents. Previous to getting all of the responsibilities I had no experience doing this, so it is accurate to say I have been thrown in to learn how to swim.

Thank you for taking the time to help me out.

Cheers

 

[misterblode]

If anyone is curious I have found more resources at UL university.

http://lms.ulknowledgeservices.com/home.aspx

There is many interactive webinars available for free as well as ones for purchase. Through this site you can also search for different seminars that are happening throughout the year.

Hope this helps anyone who is looking to learn more.

 

[DRWeig]

Thanks misterblode.

You'll find more at CSA, MATLAB, ETL, TUV. Not as extensive as UL's, but very good.

Best to you,

Goober Dave

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[mcgyvr]

Just a heads up..
You MUST use UL if your product is a component that goes into another product or you will end up having to pay UL to have your product retested by them.. (actually you force the cost on your customer and they never like that)
Why? because UL does NOT accept any other NRTL's testing information.
NRTL actually means "Nationally Recognized by every other Testing Lab EXCEPT UL"
Hopefully.. one day.. OSHA will find their nuts and force UL to accept other NRTL results/information/data.

But if your product is the final sell able good then do NOT use UL.. Just because you don't want that monopoly to keep being fed and more than likely you will get better/cheaper/faster service.

 

[misterblode]

That's one big question I had, and have found this to be true. We wanted to see if it was possible to use some other agency to stop feeding the UL giant. For us, we have no choice but to go through UL with everything, and sometimes more than that. On some older products we went through UL, CSA and FM. Seems like we should have been able to avoid that. Does anyone else have any experience or knowledge about needing multiple agencies to approve a product. Shouldn't we be able to get a cULus listed and call it good? (For North America)

 

[mcgyvr]

Its as I already said..
You can get your listing using any NRTL that can test to the applicable standards.. But if your product is a component that will be re-evaluated in a "complete system" and that company uses UL then UL will ONLY accept data/test results performed by UL.

For example...We test using Intertek/ETL.. Our product went into a complete system and that company was using UL for their approvals.. UL denied all our Intertek/ETL data and our customer was pissed and to solve it we had to pay to get the product retested 100% by UL.

However if that complete system company was using ETL or any other NRTL but UL they would have accepted our ETL data without any issues.

So basically UL will ONLY accept UL data.. All other NTRL's (as far as I know) have no problems accepting any other NRTL's data.

 

[DRWeig]

I second what mcgyvr said.

If our product is to be used in another manufacturer's product, and that manufacturer intends to list with UL, we quote UL up front.

We rarely produce anything listable for an OEM, though. As a rule, our products are for an end use. For these, we actually take bids from ETL, CSA, TUV, and METLAB. They've all been pretty good.

We never really had a problem with UL, but the cost is just waaaaayyyy too high nowadays.

Best to you,

Goober Dave

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[mcgyvr]

I must say that UL's pricing is getting better.. And they will at least come down drastically when you show a comparable quote.
I've had them drop nearly 40% off the quote before just to try to win the bid.

Don't be afraid to get multiple quotes and make them fight for the work. I routinely say.. "You are $8K too high here, 2K high here,etc.. and more likely than not they will fix it.

 

[DRWeig]

Wow, thanks mcgyvr, that's good news. It's been years since I tried negotiating with UL. Back then their fees were fixed in stone.

Best to you,

Goober Dave

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[misterblode]

This is some great information, thank you.

I didn't even think to try and negotiate a better price. I will definitely be doing this from here on out.

 

[mcgyvr]

ALWAYS at least try to negotiate a better price with anything in life. Worst case is they say no. MOST times you actually get a better price.
Nothing beats a smile and a few moments of laughter to get a price down. Just go in with a "why not..can't hurt to try" attitude and not an "I'm better than you and deserve this" attitude and you usually come out ahead.
In this world we are all competing for the work. Everyone has a little wiggle room.