Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go? 9

[Sparkette]

Though I am not myself a civil engineer I work with civil engineers. I was talking to one this morning who is driving between two offices an hour apart to work on three projects! I know there are those among you who have worked on more than that at one time so please don't regale me with your own tales of tribulation. I see how hard it is on this guy.

According to this civil engineer there is a distinct shortage of civil engineers. My question is, where are the civil engineers? Why aren't college students electing CivE as a profession?

 

[LHA]

stioffan:
You are underpaid. But at this point, stick around long enough to get your references for the PE next year, take it and pass it. Then you TELL them you what you want (don't ask), or you can go out and get it. That's what I did, it worked like a charm. If you quit now, and those 2 PEs are mad and won't vouch for you, you will have to start your 4 years over.

Women and cats will do as they please; men and dogs should just learn to live with that - Steve

 

[stioffan]

Thanks for the Advice. I have resigned myself to waiting until I pass the exam (Nov 2007).

 

[maxxl28]

stioffan
I don't know what part of Texas you live in, but here in Austin, we are having a bidding war for qualified EITs with firms paying off the Temporary Agencies and offering 3 weeeks pay vaction to start. Experienced Design techs are being paid in the $20 to $25 range! I would have a hard time believing a qualified EIT would work for half price, unless they are working in the family business.

 

[stioffan]

I work out of Fredericksburg, but when I was first in the job Market 2 years ago. No company (San Antonio and Austin included) was paying more than $30K to start. I am so close to my test, that I will probably remain here for the time being, though the pay is small.

 

[newengland]

I'm Actually graduating next month, and from what I can see, the biggest problem here in New England is that most of the students here going for civil engineering are in it for the money. starting pay around here varies, I know one that got a job in upstate New York for 48,000 but most of my friends are getting offered around 40,000.

 

[BRIS]

The UK Institution of civil Engineers (ICE) created an apparent shortage of Engineers in UK when they closed the route to professional membership for technicians. The intention was to level upwards but the opposite of dumping down was achieved. The result in UK is that Engineers spend most of their time working as unqualified (and inapt) secretaries and filing clerks and are paid accordingly. The Labour government, under Tony Blair, have more recently adopted the same policy with an objective of giving 50% of the population worthless university degrees.

When I started in civil engineering in the mid 60s, there was a structured profession with draftsmen, technicians, trainee engineers and chartered engineers (professional engineers) at the pinnacle. Engineers were highly qualified, had responsibility and in turn enjoyed respect and salaries competitive with other professions. Projects were designed and implemented by expert qualified technicians working under the supervision of engineers.

At this moment I am looking around my office: there are 4 senior engineers working for me (age above 40), no technicians no support staff. – I am filling my time on the internet; one is ordering office furniture; one is writing the monthly report; one is preparing a bill of quantities. Forty years ago, as a junior technician, I would have done all of these tasks (except play on the internet)in addition to my technician duties.

In 40 years working in 15 different countries I have never seen a shortage of civil engineers – I see a shortage of technicians, secretaries and support staff. I see engineers replacing technicians and engineers working as incompetent secretaries and typists. I see engineers getting paid salaries that are too low for their professional abilities but far too high for their actual job profiles: I see grossly inefficient organisation structures with engineers operating photocopy machines, binding documents and organising office furniture. The reason being is that engineers are cheap and relatively versitile, albeit ineffecient. In UK the blame rests squarely with the ICE

 

[francesca]

I don't think it's fair to blame the ICE. All the ICE does is charter engineers. The ICE does not tell engineering firms who to hire. If your company has chosen to hire four senior engineers where one plus three technicians would do the job, then the blame rests squarely on your director's shoulders. It's a bad business decision that is hurting profits.

The company I worked for in London had a good mix of engineers, technicians and environmentalists. Technical staff did their own typing because they were proficient at typing and it was easier to type than to write. They were involved in project management, but photocopying and filing tasks were delegated to admin staff and junior engineers, respectively. The engineers where constantly busy with techinical work and the company was highly profitable. Perhaps it's easier to achieve in a large company with dedicated admin staff, but there certainly was no meddling in company structure by the ICE.

 

[BRIS]

I was not referring to the ICE meddling in company structure but to the closure of the route to membership of the ICE by technicians. There are now practically no technician training routes and engineers are therefore doing the jobs of technicians. The objective of ICE was to create an elite engineering profession but the opposite was achieved. No one will spend 5 years following technical training to become a technician if there are no career prospects and it is easier to qualify as an engineer. Filing clerks now have degrees.

I have worked for a large number of leading consultants in UK and the majority of junior and many senior engineers are doing jobs that should be done by technicians and secretaries. Technical staff do their own typing because they have time to do it and they are cheap. Dictaphones, notes and well trained secretaries and support staff will produce far more efficiently. Support staff are much better qualified than they were 30 years ago yet they do far less. Typing is an easy way for enginers to fill in their day.

Few consultants in Europe are profitable, for most companies better returns would be achieved by investing in stocks. The problem is that a large percentage of the civil engineering business is infrastructure work under various forms of public or international donor funding and usually this work has to be bid for under competitive bidding. Although two envelope procedures of technical and financial bidding are common it is amazing how often the lowest priced tender appears to win. Consultant firms in 2006 we are bidding with charge rates that are lower than 10 years ago. If I could reduce costs by providing a structured team of engineers and technicians then I would do so but I can’t find any technicians, even if I could find technicians in the technical evaluation of bids a CV with a Phd will score higher marks than a technician even though the technicians experince is more appropriate. The whole process of bidding is a major overhead, potential markets have to be identified, expressions of interest prepared and submitted, proposals prepared. Typically proposals are invited from 6 companies which means that 80% of the effort is aborted work that is paid for from overheads. With typically 20% to 30% of staff working on business development and Proposals and 80% of their effort aborted, junior engineers doing photocopying and filing, it is easy to see where all the engineers are and why there is no money.

 

[aiden]

i dont see any shortage of civil engineers, and would agree to some posters above. what is lacking is the technical skills, i am in my mid-30s and each year i see less qualified engineers entering the workforce, some technicians are much better than them.

another factor is the salary and corporate profile. when i first have my job as civil engineer (ports and harbor), i noticed that it would take me decades to step up in the corporate ladder,.. and the promotions and salary increases are moving like snail compared to the magnitude of the work at hand (field survey, data, design, draft sketches, specs., meetings).

i decided to change jobs., i went to oil and gas (offshore projects) which even as a technician, i earn more than being a civil engineer, then i moved back to civil engineering after few years, only to find the same situation. i changed jobs again as structural detailer (better pay) and finally i am working in structural design, detailing and fabrication (mining industry) which is much better than my previous civil engineering jobs.

see, there are civil engineers, qualified civil engineers are not interested with how they are treated in the industry. they cant have the prestige that architects get, or the salaries that a technician can get.

(- from japan)

 

[caboperez]

I will give another view on this subject. I am spanish and Ingeniero de Caminos(=civil engineer in the rest of the world). With a difference, that here (Univ. Politécnica de Madrid), it requires a minimum of 6 years at the university to become Ingeniero de Caminos.
Therefore we can be catalogued as elite engineers. This is the french model of engineering in opposition to the anglosaxon model (less years at the university).
Anyway, 20 years ago and more, being Ingeniero de Caminos was a synomim of being well paid and seen as part of the country's elite.
Not anymore today (although you can still find civil engineers at top of our society).
Only those of my colleagues which change to economics (studying and MBA) or the ones who work at site in big construction companies do still continue to have good salaries.
The era of engineers is becoming the era of the economists. At least in my country and this may apply to the rest of the world. Engineers are part of the production chain and are not leading it anymore.

 

[1467]

All of the Baby Boomers went into the IT fields.

Also, with the introduction of birth control the population has taken a hit. Hence reducing the overall population.

 

[Patgeotech]

I must say that I have found this topic very interesting and one that has been on my mind for a while. I also worked in the UK and witnessed the shortage of civil engineers. The result being that the recruitment agencies have become the 'new sharks'of society. Once they have your name and number then one never gets rid of them. The good thing is that your salary improves but the 'jumping' from company to company does not look good on the CV.

Apart from the money issues that go along with our profession, one question still remains, why do most of us (civils) still do it? I can think of several good answers.

I think the problem also lies with the institutions that produce us engineers. I think that most universities are more worried about their numbers and the quality slides. The academic staff then become bored and fustrated with this state of affairs and this does not encourage the students - the result is that many students change direction and end up in the IT or business sectors.

 

[francesca]

I had a recruiter in London schedule me an interview after I had expressly told him I was NOT looking for work!

 

[kendraguorong]

without a doubt, this is not any shortage of civil engineers. cos many developing countries , like China and India , possess many qualified civil engimeers with a much lower salary ,a tenth of part of yours. I am a civil engineer from china .

 

[Zambo]

kendraguorong,

I expect that very soon India and China will have a shortage of Civil Engineers and that this will help your salary to rise. However I don't think that you should compare your salary against Civil Engineers from different countries (living costs, taxes etc are widely different between the east and west)but you should compare against other professions in your own country such as doctors lawyers etc.

I have worked in many countries - currently Malaysia - and I can assure you that as countries develop there is a high demand for Civil Engineers that often cannot be met from the education establishments within the country.

 

[chicopee]

Colleges offering CE programs are now providing dual disciplines being CE and Environmental Engineering. People will go where the money is and that is environmental enginnering. CE jobs are no longer as abundant as they were back in the late 50's when the Interstate system was being developed.

 

[HgTX]

That's funny, we've been having trouble filling CE positions in my office.

The Interstate system is officially 50 years old. That makes most of it in need of improvement or rebuilding.

Hg

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[bimr]

Zambo, your comments are also funny.

Don't know where you have been in Malaysia, but you should check out the colleges if you go there again.

You can get more or less the same education in the third world for a tenth of what you paid for yours. Believe me, there are plenty of engineers in the third world.

 

[bimr]

chicopee,

Hate to burst your ballon, but there is no money in environmental work. Right now, the environmental field is a career dead end.

In addition, have you ever heard the statement made that no matter how much of the interstate highway system is completed, it takes the same amount of funds that was previously spent to complete the remaining sections.

The interstate highway system is an ongoing project and has not ended.

 

[Ashereng]

chicopee,

I have heard souther Ontario to be a hot bed of environmental work. I have class mates who are doing very well right now in that area.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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