Where does Civil scope end?

[EG]

Hi All,

We are looking for any feedback or references that helps delineate or define the limits of civil 'scope' for site improvements as they interface with a building. Here are 2 examples:

1. For a sidewalk either connecting to a building entrance or a perimeter walk, we will typically reference compaction requirements and subgrade prep, specify concrete handling and placement, and detail the grades. However, there may be conflicts as you approach the foundation zone with respect to backfill material and compaction effort; and,

2. Utilities: We have a project that involves a grease interceptor located in a parking lot outside the building. We typically will coordinate the location of the GI with the M/E/P and provide conveyance downstream from the GI. The M/E/P typically provides the GI plan info including piping upstream (from the building to the GI).

Lastly, we provide construction observation for the scope of work on OUR plans. Recently, we have a situation where the plumber installed schedule 40 (M/E/P plans) to the GI and then the site excavator transitioned out of the GI with SDR 35 (our plans). We alerted both the general contractor and the local water district (out of courtesy) that SDR 35 is preferred underground (site). The water district claims we (civil) should have stopped the work and required the contractor to remove the sch 40 piping and replace it with sdr 35 since it was 'site' piping. We responded that we have no authority over other discipline's plans, only our own. What a poop storm that started!

The question about limits of professional scope has since arisen and I am interested in hearing other's opinions or references on how to better define where the hand-off between civil and M/E/P or civil and architect should occur. Thanks.

 

[cvg]

well, if there is an architect coordinating this work, than it is his call
suggest that the architect / structural provide a line that indicates the outside of the building foundation / exterior walls and then offset two feet outside of that line and that is the match line. Any utilities extending through the structural backfill should be trenched through the completed backfill and then installed so there should not be any conflict with the foundation work.

you should be "alerting" the architect of these things that go wrong on site or other coordination items, let him run interference since he is supposedly in charge of the project...

 

[bimr]

It would seem that you have more of an issue with project coordination than scope of work.

There is no cookbook method where the work is performed using the same scope and responsibilities on every project. Every project tends to be unique.

Suggest that you institute regular project meetings.

 

[EG]

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Somewhere along the way, I once heard that the civil scope ends 5-ft from the foundation as a general rule. I am wondering how other engineers establish their limits of responsibility relative to a project that integrates multiple disciplines. What has your practice been?

 

[allgoodnamestaken]

The scope of a civil engineer's responsibility is going to depend on their agreement with the client. It definitely has nothing to do with a certain distance from a foundation.

 

[EG]

The scope of a civil engineer's responsibility extends beyond the agreement with the Client. Sometimes I wish that was not the case...

 

[allgoodnamestaken]

Certainly you're right in terms of responsibility to safety, but in terms of project responsibilities that aren't directly safety related the extent of responsibility is something that should have been defined in the contract/negotiations.

 

[bimr]

The architect's scope typically ends 5-ft from the foundation and the civil/site scope begins at that point.

The scope of work is an important document and is included in the Contract. Engineers are generally advised to design to the scope of work.

Another aspect of an engineer's work is the expertise of the engineer. Some engineers are capable of working in all areas of civil engineering. Others are limited to practicing in specialized disciplines.

 

[Terratek]

It would be pretty tough for the civil to make grading plans if his scope stopped 5 ft outside the building pad...

 

[cvg]

rough grading plan is done with just an outline of the proposed building. civil should also be setting the finished floor elevation and completing a plot plan showing the exact location of the building on the property. but there is usually a match line 2 - 5 feet from the edge which defines the limits of structural, MEP, and site civil including the finished grading plan.

 

[EG]

CVG -

Your response was what I was looking for. We all know that project management and communication is important but I was specifically looking for practices or references on how others convey where 'mine ends and yours begins'. Thanks to all taking the time to reply.

 

[Terratek]

Interesting. I help someone with engineering part time, but he is a PE, RPLS and a licensed architect, so his projects are fully integrated with no divisions of responsibility. But I've never noticed a match line around the building footprint on plans that I review for my day job. I'll have to look for that.

 

[darthsoilsguy2]

civil scope goes to the building. steps and landings at entrances need civil oversight, especially with all the code issues tied to access now. if you there is a basement wall that you don't wish to specify backfill for because you don't know what lateral loads the structural is counting on.... just put a leader on the plans and refer the contractor to structural plans for foundation backfill specifications. even if they don't specify it, it creates the opportunity for the question to go to the right person. As far as fill goes in the 'foundation zone' (first time i heard that phrase), it is the best approach to read the geotech report and modify specs for the recommendations so there is not contradictory information available. when site piping and plumbing intersect is a fuzzier gray area. i wouldn't have made that courtesy call. i noticed that you didn't say how far the GI was from the building.

 

[LincolnPE]

Final grading is done by the civil and extends all the way to the foundation walls, and needs to meet soils report recommendation and building code requirements at a minimum.

Water and sewer service stop 5' from the foundation walls, and the plumber takes it from there into the building.

 

[ADAguy]

Let us better understand what we are dealing with.

The initial question is by whom is the civil retained: owner, architect, CM, design/builder or the civil.

Whether the project is residential or commercial, they all begin with a site.

The each site has boundaries (some include easements) and interconnections (utilites or not), curbs, driveways, gutters & sidewalks,. It may or may not have a soils report but the civil must know the limits of the geology, just as the structural must too.

The civil works and communicates with the architects (and landscape architect (if there is one) site plan to provide the interconnections and elevations of utility and waste connections, sets elevations and grades for site drainage and as previously noted, specifies site clearing, grading and backfill requirements based on the soils report and site plan.

If his plans require construction coordination then he is responsible for identifying any conflicts between M/P/E subs and reporting them to the architect or Design/build lead.

At issue is not "passing the buck" but predetermining your scope of services and what is customary for similar projects in your area.

 

[KootK]

Other side of the fence opinion here. As a structural consultant, I consider my scope to end at the exterior side of my foundation system. Oddly, we'll also do external retaining walls if those walls are plain old cantilevered concrete. I'd happily exclude those as well but it never seems to stick.

I find that architects generally expect the structural discipline to handle bollards, lamp post supports, equipment pads, and all manner of other hardscape. Early on in a project, I'll try to have the scope conversation with the architect and the civil engineer. I've found the civil guys to be quite helpful so long as they have adequate time to react. From what I've seen, the biggest issue is that the architect will assume certain things to be structural scope and, as a result, they won't even show these elements to the civil consultant until a few days before tender.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[Terratek]

Just from general construction experience, I always thought the trades owned the utilities from the building to the tap, regardless how far the tap was located from the building. That seems simple enough for a residence of commercial building, but not sure how that works for an apartment complex or other large campus.

 

[needcoffee]

The 5 ft from the building for underground utilities was always a general rule of thumb our company went by for MEP/Civil interface design. Just recently, for a one of the big private clients we serve in Central Florida, that scope has changed due to construction requirement changes - mostly having to do with fire supply utility.

For Site/civil we use to stop the fire supply 5 feet outside the building and the fire utility contractor would take his piping (from the MEP drawings) underground and make the connection at the 5 ft point. New code required that any underground piping be done be a contractor certified to do that type of work, which most of the fire supply contractors weren't certified to do. This meant that on our civil plans, we had to show the fire supply going into the building and coming up through the foundation to be connected. This caused some issues with various civils who do work for this client. After a little bit of push back, we eventually just started adding this to our scope of work.

 

[ADAguy]

Terratek please explain "own"? Does that include responsibility (based on soils report, plans and specs) for: barracades, trenching (onsite and public way), shoring, placement, backfill, finish surface, connection permits and inspections?

 

[Terratek]

ADAguy,

Lets assume the construction is run by a GC: By own, I mean "responsible for". Where I practice, trenching, shoring, bracing, etc., belongs to whoever is digging the trench, the GC. The geotech or civil does not typically become involved in trench safety design - in my region. That is considered more of a means and methods issue for the contractor. Responsibility for obtaining permits would depend on how the contract is written. If the permit requires a licensed plumber or electrician, than the GC or respective trade normally gets the permit. Who provides barricades for traffic control is negotiable - depends on the contract. It would normally be in the GC's court. Backfill, finish surface and inspections are usually the GC's responsibility as well.

If there are specific design items related to geotech/civil for the utilities, than those would be incorporated into the civil plans but would normally be the responsibility of the GC to install correctly.

I think the situation that the OP has can seem a little more cloudy since his firm is providing construction observation. As a geotech firm, we provide materials testing and it is not uncommon for the finger to get pointed at us for all kinds of accountability that is not part of our scope. I think the best thing EG can do is get really familiar with the contract scope and to don't go past it even as a favor. No good deed goes unpunished in this industry.