Where have all the engineers gone?? 17

[izax1]

I just found the following on CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/12/30/cb.popular.graduate.degrees/index.html?iref=obinsite

And I wonder: Why has the demand for engineers declined??

And I wonder because everymans demand for engineering gadgets are still present in an ever increasing complexity. (Computers, Kitchen utilities, TV and Home video etc) but I think the most demanding and most complex engineered utilities must be the "tools" we use to get as far as possible and as fast as possible from A to B. And at the same time without failure and accidents. We still need ever more advanced cars, trains, aeroplanes and ships. Wher to they come from if not from clever engineers? And you dont get from A to B with a computer if you do not have the car with and engine.
I am a mechanical (aerospace) engineer myself from Europe and love my job, and have been privileged with working with advanced automobiles, aeroplanes and spacecrafts. This survey from CNN is not unique, and not specific for the US. What will transport the dentists, the doctors, the accountants, the teachers, the politicians from A to B if there are no engineers to design and develop the transporters.

I just wonder?

 

[moltenmetal]

Twoballcane must not have studied the time value of money in engineering economics...that early money versus early debt is worth a lot, presuming you have the wisdom not to p*ss it away...

For the engineers who get jobs as engineers right out of school, I don't think they're too badly off relative to the trades. But if my classmates and those of some of my colleagues are any indication, the ones who graduate and get jobs outside of engineering, in the general business world out there, do even better.

If we did a better job of controlling supply into our profession, like all the REAL professions do, all the people who actually work as engineers would be better off. Instead, we're out there recruiting kids to become engineers as if we're in short supply. I guess more than a few of us don't understand basic economics!

Engineering is still a good gig if you're in the top 10% of your profession. Trouble is, it was once a good gig if you were in it at all...I don't personally call that progress.

 

[HornTootinEE]

IF we required licensure to even be called an Engineer, that would change things immensly.
Technically, that is the base. But I work with many engineers with engineering degrees who are not licensed engineers. So to our company, engineers are a dime a dozen. Licensed engineers, on the other hand, are few and far between. If law required everyone, even private extempt companies to have licensed PEs heading their work, engineering would certainly become ALOT more valuable, as would licensure.

 

[GregLocock]

Yes, we've noticed that requiring all drivers to pass driving tests ensures a consistently high standard of driving.

If you make licensing compulsory, schools will aim at teaching for the license. Be careful what you wish for.





Cheers

Greg Locock


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[ScottyUK]

The CNN study looked at percentage change in numbers recruited, not absolute numbers. Some of those fields are pretty narrow and specialised, so a few extra positions make a big difference. If you don't want to tell the truth you can always hide it behind statistics.


----------------------------------

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[brandonbw]

Yikes, CNN and percentages. Anyone who took some math classes knows how pointless those two go together.

Reminds me of when I was in Jury Duty and made my deliberation understand the math they were thinking, which is just insane to begin with, and they finally agreed they were willing to give the winner in the trial unlimited money.

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[flash3780]

IF we required licensure to even be called an Engineer, that would change things immensly.

Ehhhhhh... it just sounds like more bureaucracy, fees and paperwork for everyone to deal with to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm working on getting licensed. But, what is gained by getting the government involved further? Do products fall apart because they were designed by unlicensed engineers? We fly in aircraft and drive in cars that were by-and-large designed by unlicensed engineers.

 

[moltenmetal]

Ask yourself this: who is better qualified to judge the competence of an engineer: another engineer, or a non engineer working for an insurance company?

The argument that engineers don't need licensure because people aren't being killed daily (as they once were) as a result of engineering errors is missing the point. Protecting the public is different than, and superior to, merely compensating the victims after the fact.

 

[flash3780]

Ask yourself this: who is better qualified to judge the competence of an engineer: another engineer, or a non engineer working for an insurance company?

You're presenting a false choice. Insurance companies employ consulting engineers and have a huge monetary stake in designs working vs not.

I would argue that many government engineers are more involved in project management than engineering (in general) and also rely heavily on consulting engineers.

As was mentioned earlier, just because the government gives you a piece of paper saying that you're an engineer doesn't mean that you're a good one.

Also, there is the issue of overseas competition. If companies cannot find engineers in country, it's easy enough to go out of country for many products. There's nothing that says one country's engineers are better than another. The same can't be said for other professions like doctors, lawyers or plumbers - all who have strict licensure requirements to maintain high pay.

 

[rmw]

Let's see...

I have a CDL (Commercial Drivers License) in my pocket good for tractor-trailers and/or buses and it is said that I can make more with it than as an engineer? Then why am I working as an engineer?

Because it is not true that I can make more. I can gross more (maybe), but I can't make more. By the time I pay road expenses and a lot of other hidden "etc" I would make a lot less. Many truck driver's families live on about $10-15K/yr after all the bread winner's expenses are paid.

Now to the OP topic.

Engineering is the "stealth" profession. If engineers as a whole did what Doctors and Lawyers do with respect to promoting their profession, when someone says in that house lives a Doctor and over there is a Lawyer, they would also point out where the engineers live too.

Doctors control what and who gets into their profession and control the numbers. Interestingly they too in these times area having to fill their ranks with non-citizens. They do have one thing in common with us in that their education is rigorous too.

Lawyers on the other hand have a racket. They have discovered that those that make the laws can benefit from those laws so they all go into lawmaking.

If we could get a lot of engineers to get interested in politics and get elected and start making laws that benefited engineers like Lawyers do for Lawyers, we'd swap places with them.

In general we do what we do because we like what we do, not because it is a money making racket. That has been pointed out in this forum several times before.

Because what we do is technical and difficult we tend to attract the nerdy types (yes that would be me too and proud of it.) I'd rather design and build a power plant any day than invest in one. But then again, I am not going to bitch when the finance guy down the street makes more money trading the power than I made generating it. The choice was mine.

rmw

 

[davefitz]

Back to the CNN article:

A decrease in US engineering advanced degrees is likely tied to the increased difficulty in obtaining a visa for overseas students post 9/11- they had traditionally made up the majority of US engineering grad students.

A US engineer that has just graduated has to make a choice- accept a job at $50K plus benefits and start paying back their college loans, or spend another 1-2-3 yrs in grad school , accumulate another $20-60K in debt , and possibly be overqualified for whatever jobs are out there. For most , it is not a difficult decision.

Teachers /educators usually qualify for a higher pay grade if they obtain an advanced degree, so that is a rational choice that explains that increase in MA's. It is not so clear cut with engineering- assuming you can land a job.

 

[cranky108]

If we could get a lot of engineers to get interested in politics and get elected and start making laws that benefited engineers like Lawyers do for Lawyers, we'd swap places with them.

Jimmy Carter was an engineer, and that fact made things worse for engineers.

 

[thinkfree09]

I think people are definitely choosing to go in the direction of choosing an Master Degrees that will increase an individuals earning potential. Especially, if he or she has worked as an engineer for quite some time and do not feel that there is room for taking on more leadership roles within ones establishment. However, making the choice to obtain a non-engineering degree can also be of some benefit to those who are the few who do (increase pay). Perhaps, one of the major reasons why our schools are not generating more engineers are simply because people do not have the interest or encouragement to proceed in an engineering curriculum.

 

[lacajun]

I've read and heard for many years engineering enrollment in the US declined because it is difficult. They want to party in college and engineering school is not "that" conducive to partying.

Former colleagues, who are now retired, could not get their kids to pursue engineering because their kids saw the way they were treated by the company and wanted no part of it. They also resented their father's being away from home so much. They wanted to be home for their kids to be an integral part of their lives and deduced that an engineering career would not allow that.

 

[izax1]

Hmmm. Interesting comments. Although I'm not from the US, I think we can see the same pattern in Europe. Maybe we have to wait until AirForce One and the limousines are not working anymore, and no replacenments are to be found. Then maybe someone will start thinking.....

Where have all the engineers gone??????

 

[Jafka]

A lot of jobs will be phased out over the next 10-20 years as "workshare" (the new word for "outsourcing") starts to really kick in at the larger design firms.

Operations engineering will also generally go overseas to follow the exodus of manufacturing jobs. This is excepting domestic industries like natural gas processing, which will stay in the US.

 

[Twoballcane]

Interesting article:

http://articles.boston.com/2011-02-...73_1_manufacturing-output-black-dress-decline

Excerpt:

“A vast amount of “stuff’’ is still made in the USA, albeit not the inexpensive consumer goods that fill the shelves in Target or Walgreens. American factories make fighter jets and air conditioners, automobiles and pharmaceuticals, industrial lathes and semiconductors. Not the sort of things on your weekly shopping list? Maybe not. But that doesn’t change economic reality. They may have “clos[ed] down the textile mill across the railroad tracks.’’ But America’s manufacturing glory is far from a thing of the past.”




Tobalcane
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“Luck is where preparation meets opportunity”

 

[KENAT]

How many semiconductors are really made in the US?

We sell into that market and most of the instruments we sell go to asia.

Similar goes with other items in that list.

With all the off set requirements etc. many components for aircraft and vehicles at least are imported, and we're teaching the 'customers' how to do it their selves next time (well, maybe, easier said than done for some of the items).

Even a lot of high tech stuff is already being made in China or similar places.

Don't misunderstand me though, US is doing better than US last I saw. However, I fear they're maybe on the same track, except the UK is further along it.

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[KENAT]

"US is doing better than UK last I saw"

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[Jafka]

@Twoballcane:

I think it's misleading to take the total dollars of manufacturing output and present that as a sign American industry is actually doing better than anyone else in the world.

What I like is Perry's original blog post concedes the loss of over 7 million manufacturing jobs since 1970 but still concludes with "Americans should take more pride and celebrate our status as the world’s leading manufacturer." Hurray!

 

[StoneCold]

I think the thing that would benifit engineers the most is if all engineers worked as consultants, like most lawyers and doctors.

In house engineering drives down the "value" of engineering. Engineers are put in compromising positions when they work directly for the end user. You also get swallowed up in the company, and your voice becomes that of an individual, not "The Firm".
That being said I have worked the last 10 years as an
inhouse engineer.

Stone Cold