Where have all the skilled trades gone? 12

[weeeds]

Access to good welding and fabricating capabilities is becoming a serious problem in North America.
The number of professional trades people, the ones who really understand what they are doing, is in serious decline. My experience recently has been that once a worker learns how to melt steel they immediately consider themselves your best welder.
Am I experiencing a local problem or is the same trend developing in other parts of the world.
Where in the world are the professional trades people?

 

[MikeMech]

Sometimes I wonder if people who would otherwise have made excellent tradespeople are, instead of learning hands-on skills through an apprenticeship or on the job, going to college and entering the "white collar" world.

Are bright, motivated, quick-learning people encouraged to get a degree, even if they have to go into deep debt? Is their earning potential with the degree worth the investment?

Many larger companies require degrees in order to advance above a certain level. Does this effectively prevent someone from "working their way up"? Most shop personnel I know don't have the time or the money to go to school nights for 4-5 years to get a degree of some sort.

I fear sometimes that this sort of mindset creates a culture of Thinkers and Doers, and never the twain shall meet, with negative impact on the efficiency of the workplace.

BTW, my shop lead welder has a master's degree in music and a teaching certificate! He switched to welding as preferable to teaching music to grade schoolers...

 

[Cockroach]

Fort McMurray, Alberta Canada. They're employed at either Suncor or Syncrude.

Got a buddy that rents his sofa (chesterfield) out in his hotel room for $CDN 500.00 per month. I bet you by next weekend he will be paid this in Euros. Too many bodies and not enough accomodation is overheating our economy.

CNRL (Canadian Natural Resources Ltd) is bringing in migrant Chinese trades on a temporary work permit. Not to worry, most will probably skip across the border and slip into the underground American economy when winter hits.

Kenneth J Hueston, PEng
Principal
Sturni-Hueston Engineering Inc
Edmonton, Alberta Canada

 

[weeeds]

Ashereng, your points are well taken and not offensive. There are many misconceptions on the employee side of businesses that the owners are rich and got there by the sweat of their employees. Certainly in some cases this is true, but not in our case. The problem that we are experiencing, as outlined previously, is that manufacturers are stuck between the local cost of doing business and the international market price for the finished goods. One way or another it all comes down to money.
In Canada we are experiencing tremendous growth in the West with the oil sands expansions sucking out a great deal of the skilled trades and nobody can compete with the wages people are getting out there. The oil industry will pay whatever it needs to pay to bring workers in.
What this leaves behind is a group of "hired guns". These are the remaining tradespeople who do not wish to uproot and work under harsh conditions, so they hire themselves out to the fabricators in the rest of the country. The lack of supply of qualified tradespeople has led to an unstable market condition where there simply are not enough qualified employees coming into the marketplace. Add to that the "hired gun" mentality and we have an industry that will no longer be competitive internationally, and die.
So no, underpaying employees is not the issue. The manufacturers are paying top dollar for substandard work because the pros are not being developed.

 

[Ashereng]

widla,

I am glad you are not offened. I appreciate the fact that you are making an honest effort to make your business go, in a tough environment with escalating labour costs, and ever escalating competition from everywhere.

Yes, your situation is tough (between a rock and a hard place is the saying?).

I would like to offer another point of view. My father was a union mechanic in the textile industry. In the 70's, when times were still good, the company decide to wring as much profit from the mill as they could. One way was on labout. My father's crew did not have a new member in that decade. In the 80's, his mill was not doing too good - cheap goods from Asia, expensive union labour, etc. Sort of like what is happening to you. So, they couldn't hire anyone, hence, no new member to the crew either. The mill made it through though, because old mechanics like my father's crew were good - good mechanics, millwrights, with multiple skills and some would say a huge dallop of creativity. When my father and his crew retired/died, there were no mechanics with their skills to replace them. Within 5 years, the mill closed. I am sure there were lots of other reasons, but a loss of over 50% of the trades didn't help (rough estimated numbers).

The lack of skilled trades is not a recent phenomenom. It started way back 30 years ago. We saw it then - my dad told me to go to "school" because employers were not interested in hiring skilled trades.

On the issue of the hired gun, I am unfortunately on the other side of the arguement from you again.

15 years ago, when the economy was not that good, the companies treated "us workers" like we were expendable. Don't get me wrong, back then, we were. Our rates were beaten down, we were under constant threat of being let go ... etc. Many of my peers left enginering/technical/trades to do other things, to provide for their family.

Now, times are good. Those of us that made it through, we remember (je me souviens is not only for the french). I have a hired gun mentality because that was the mentality of the employers when times were lean. I was treated like a commodity - a cheap one. Now, I seem to be a hotter commodity - a commodity none the less. Like my farming father-in-law says, might as well make hay when the making's good.

I am not saying this is anyone's fault or doing, especially not you widla. What I am saying is that we reap what we sow - we just often forget what we sowed, and years later, the lament start.



"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[weeeds]

Ashereng, your comments about your dad's era are right on. I also grew up in times when engineers were a commodity. But back in the 70's we still respected our employer and were happy to have a job.
Through history many employers got rich by squeezing the life out of their employees. We do not function that way. In our small business every employee is there for a reason and plays a vital role so the strengths and weaknesses of everyone shows up on the bottom line immediately, this is why it is so important for us to have good people. There is no room for error.
It almost seems that to be successful in todays economy you have to treat employees as mere tools, which only perpetuates the cycle of mistrust and prevents the development of strong bonds between owners and employees. I feel this is a tragedy and a failure of character on the parts of the people who participate in this boom and bust mentality.
I will keep looking for a few pros to work with.

 

[Ashereng]

widla,

When I work for a company, I do just that. What I do is usually spelled out in my contract, along with rate and termination date (I prefer fixed-term contracts). I do my work, I do it very well, and that is it. I don't try to help the company succeed, I don't deal with their problems and issues outside of my contract.

Hypothetically speaking, if you wanted me to help your company succeed, to help you build your company up, train your people, etc., then I would want a piece of the pie. A partnership/ownership. This way, I would share in the fortunes of what I sow, and I would have more of a vested interest in seeing your company succeed.


I still believe, the problem today, is generally that you can't get the skill without paying. In specific cases, perhaps your widla, the problem may be that there is no "supply" available. I recently read a job posting for experienced satellite launch supervisor. I am guessing that there can't be too many of those on earth.

Have you tried to broaden the "coverage" of your search? Somewhere, the skill is there, you just have to bring him/her to where you are.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[cutinoak]

Skilled craftmen,

I'm one of those guys. At age 19 my first welding job was a shop that made front-end loaders for tractors. I learned how to mig weld steel. I learned from watching and paying close attention to the best welders in the shop.
The next company I worker for made trailers and flatbeds for trucks. I had to completly fabricate and weld the products. So basically I started my carear.
The next company was my favorite. We built plastic thermoforming machines. It's just amazing what I learned.
mig and tig steel, stainless ,and aluminum. I worked with press brakes, shears, and other fab shop machinery. Brazing and welding cast iron. Also some self taught lathe work. Installing gears, cylinders, sprockets, and many other working devices. I also started whining because my knowledge grew but my pay did not. So I moved on.
Next company was into structural platforms, stairs, handrail, cyclones, and transitions. I learned how to layout everthing on flat sheet and form it very well. I was head fabrictor. I also enjoyed being in the machine shop using the lathes and mills. I became a machinist. I would also draw up platforms for the company with my computer. In my own time working there I build my own portable hydraulically operated sawmill. It's sitting in my back yard right now waiting for me to put a log in it. I built a stainless barbeque grill that only a doctor should own. I can blacksmith roses out of 1/4" hrr all day long.

I can find drafting errors before structures are built. But thats not good enough because the concrete anchor bolts did not match the base plates of the columns.

I started working for a shop this year that employs 60.
They use cnc machining and burning of plate. This is an example of losing your pride. Although I know how to layout a cone, they won't let me. I get it already cut for me to roll. My knowledge of fabricating is wasting away. I try to teach the younger unexperienced employees my skills.


Theres more to this but I have to go for now.

 

[Warpspeed]

Cutinoak,

It is not only in the mechanical design and fabrication area that computer de-skilling is happening. It is also happening in the electronics design industry.

My interests and skills lie in both mechanical and electronic engineering design and fabrication, and I can really Identify with your comments.

Computer simulation has revolutionized design, but it also diminishes the hands on skills, and the experience, and the "intuition" and hard won knowledge only gained by designing and building things the hard way, and sometimes failing.

The new graduates come out of university with a head full of software, and think they know all about electronics (or mechanical) design and manufacturing.

I guess if you can drive Autocad, and program a CNC machine, you also know absolutely everything there is to know about mechanical engineering and fabrication.

These guys demand top salary, prestige, and airconditioned comfort straight out of university. They look down on a skilled tradesman with perhaps, forty years of workshop floor experience as being just a dummy.

I am also seeing graduates that PAY others to do their university assignments for them, and scrape through a degree course with virtually no real knowledge. The whole system is winding down into chaos.

 

[WilliamH]

Warpspeed,

Dead-on correct. You get a star from me!

 

[berkshire]

Gentlemen,
The comment by warpspeed " I am also seeing graduates that PAY others to do their university assignments for them, and scrape through a degree course with virtually no real knowledge. The whole system is winding down into chaos. ", is scary if it has any basis in truth.
It is bad enough, that newly graduated engineers or fresh turned out Journeymen, think they can leap tall buildings with a single bound, and usually take a year on the job to find out they can't, but here, you are describing someone, who has bought a degree/certificate and does not even know, what he/she does not know, because they have not done the work.
B.E.

 

[Ashereng]

berkshire,

I am sure that the "greybeards" around when we graduated said the same thing about us.

It's one of those every generation thinks they invented sex thing.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[Warpspeed]

Berkshire,

I have a very good friend of 20+ years standing that is an Associate Professor of mechanical engineering at a particular university here in Melbourne. I sometimes become involved on odd occasions helping post graduate students with some of their projects. Usually it is just advice on selecting appropriate instrumentation, or perhaps an interfacing problem Really it is free consultation, but it is always interesting and I am happy to do it, and visit my friend.

Anyhow, on campus I sometimes get to hang out with some of the younger undergraduate engineering students. I have been approached three times in about the last ten years to complete assignments and do final year practical projects FOR CASH. Not assist or advise, but complete the whole thing for them. I am not making any of this up. I have been told that this is now fairly common practice among some struggling students from wealthier families.

I could not bear to tell my Professor friend, it would break his heart. Times certainly seem to be changing.

 

[berkshire]

Ashereng (Petroleum)
Yea I was, one of those smart assed kids, now I am a greybeard.
Warpspeed (Automotive)
What you are saying devalues a degree from that university.
I am sorry to hear that.
B.E.

 

[arunmrao]

Warspeed,
Why talk of Canada and rich country. In a poor country like India, I have had your experience 10 years ago. For degree students I would go all the way and help them in their project work as an incentive for them to become good engineers,(All this was free).

But a few post graduate students approached me to asist them in their dissertation work. Their plea was this would enable to get better jobs, a raise, a better alliance too!!.

Compensation would be given for undetaking this job. I was aghast and refused such a bait. Since then I have stopped visiting the academics.

When this is the status of engineering education,no doubt we are losing the race.

 

[Warpspeed]

I believe most of us would try to encourage an engineering student by offering help by way of explanation or clarification.

But there is a vast gulf between that, and what effectively amounts to straight cheating. And there is probably a vast grey area in between. It is really a moral issue, and a sad reflection on the decline in ethics.

But it is not just the students. The lodges and secret societies have also had a devastating effect on ethics in engineering. But I don't want to go into that.

"Where have all the skilled trades gone ?"

I believe it is a symptom of the times we live in.

 

[CapriRS]

There are many good points here.

Personally, I don't think the trades have dwindled as much as they have been diluted and increasingly specialized. I think that is true in the engineering fields as well. Stating that one has a degree in Mechanical Engineering is as meaningless as claiming to be a doctor. It requires further clarification because there are so many versions of the Mechanical Engineer or doctor.

In modern times, it is ever more difficult to be highly skilled in many fields because there are so many widely varying areas of specialty that it's just not possible to be fluent in everything. CAD people require constant updating on new versions of software. Machinists have to constantly learn new controls on the CNC machines. A person who is highly skilled on inspection equipment is often a "newbie" when starting at a different company and "cannot hit the ground running".

The proliferaion of computerized equipment has revolutionalized industries. One CNC machine will do in a day what took several skilled people weeks to complete. AutoCAD will allow draftsmen to create and amend drawings in significantly less time.

I started with a BSME in 1993 but could not find companies that valued that knowledge. About 6 years ago, I abandoned engineering and now have two CNC vertical machining centers in my garage that provide triple the income I recieved as an engineer. I am by no means a journeyman machinist and have very limited knowledge. However, I am good enough that companies will pay me instead of making their parts in-house. If I am asked to make something I have no skills with, I am stuck and have to pass on the work. But there is so much work available that I don't have to worry about my lack of skills. That is how most manufacturing shops operate these days.

I believe that the deeper problem lies with the lack of mentorship that goes along with apprenticeship. In addition to learning the trade, there was someone alongside of the rookie teaching them about being a part of the company and the ethics of the workplace. That is the part that is not included with the purchase of a new CNC machine or piece of software. I can teach someone to run a CNC and make good parts in a few weeks, but mentoring someone about the workplace is a much longer process.

 

[okeng]

The problem of kids being encouraged to go to college for no particular reason is common. I've seen a couple of exceptions to that, but for the most part, parents discourage their kids from considering anything but college after high school. It's basically a vote of "no confidence" in the kids. Everyone thinks that once someone interrupts their flow of schooling, they will never pick it back up.

I see a few bright spots--we have a new oil boom going on in Oklahoma, and the pay for "blue-collar" work has taken a nice jump. It's making it very hard to find people to work in factories for the pay that was common a couple of years ago. It is enticing some bright kids to go out and work instead of lounge around at college.

The sad part is, the "job skill" most in demand is passing a drug test. On a positive note, the oilfield seems to have adopted a much more serious approach to safety--so much so that a drilling crew of 5 will often posess 50 fingers. You didn't see that back in the '70s.

Great thread!

Thanks,

Jess Davis

 

[okeng]

I think the best thing to happen to the engineering/manufacturing business is the massive interest that has suddenly cropped up around shows like Monster Garage, Junkyard Wars, and so on. I'm not much into goofy choppers, but amoung the high-school kids, building stuff is suddenly pretty cool. That's the first step toward a generation of engineers and fabricators.

'Course, they'll all have tattoos and piercings.....

Jess Davis

 

[berkshire]

So wot's wrong wiv a tattoo and a piercing here and there if they can do the job? Eh?
B.E.

 

[Warpspeed]

Probably nothing if they are one of the back room boys (girls).

But if they represent the company in a visible capacity, it may not project the "corporate image" that the company is trying to achieve.