Which machine is the corolla/ civic of 2D laser industry? 1

[ifin]

Not quite sure if this is the best way to ask this question but what machine would be comparable to the toyota corrola or honda civic of the laser industry.

This would be our first laser so:
1. training, support and ease of use very important.
2.trying to find a balance between cost of machine vs. cost of operation


why we buying this:
1. Cut 11 and 16 CRS and SS decorative parts
2. rapid prototyping
3. rate of production - slow to med
4. Automation not required

 

[drossfree]

personally i have operated 3 different trumpf machines and an amada machine and for light guage material such as in your post i have found trumpf machines to be quite a bit faster than the amada. (when using sprintlas)also trumpf training is much more complete. newer machines can be diagnosed over the phone you just plug a phone line into the machine and they can check your tech tables instantly.

 

[ifin]

we have a Trumpf punch and are pleased with its performance, from looking at our production volume I'm not sure if I can justify a new trumpf laser as opposed to an amada pulsar or mits.

 

[msandoval]

I would look into a Pulsar 1212 with a 2.0 Kw or 2.5 Kw Resonator. Small footprint, compact, proven concept with a PC based control and laser (Fanuc). You may want to take a look at a Mazak Champ or even a Bystronic Byvention, or a Mitsubishi Hybrid machine.

To me it sounds you are looking for an affordable new machine and I am not sure the European brands may have what you are looking for.

I hope you are able to find what you are looking for soon.

 

[laserman16]

The Mazak Champ is a really solidly built laser - hybrid in design, very low vibration and extremly cost efficient to operate on an hourly basis.

The feed rates are comparia ble to most 2K lasers, the controler is nice and easy to master and get around with as well.

I'm not a big fan of Trumps. They are more costly to run especially come refub time! and can easily rack up big bucks as resonators have to be replaced.

Amada make a nice machine. I''ve run a number of them and have been happy with what I saw but my preference is the Mazak as they also focus on automation and can easily add on if you chose to down the road.

The money is in automation and they are the masters in that market.

Good luck and hope you find what your looking for.

 

[laserman16]

I'd suggest you look into the Mazak Champ laser. It has a 1.3K resonator and is perfectly suited for the application to which you wish to utilize it.

You can option it with a auto focus feature (I would get this if only for the time savings) and a number of other usefull options you might be interested in.

It is rated to cut up to .160 in both s/s and alum and comes with a great price for a machine of this capability.

Good luck with your search and hope it goes well for you.

 

[ifin]

msandoval and laserman, thanks for you input.

msandoval - you hit it right on the money. Those are all the machines I narrowed down to looking at my requirements
pulsar, mazak, mits, byvention. It seems like Laserman is recommending a mazak, I am going to consider while I doing the detailed comparison

I guess my next step is to really compare these machines based on their true cost of ownership.

It sounds like a refub is inevitable regardless of how good your PM program is huh?. so thats needs to be accounted for?

If you were to compare these 4 machines - what all would you guys compare from this point on.

 

[laserman16]

Well they all have their own benifits really. Honstly what it will come down to is your needs right now but ALSO your projected needs in the future.

I know with Mazak the hourly cost is inexpensive and you can add on with the automation down the road, which is always benificial.

You need to factor in the materials your processing now and materials you may process later on. I'd recommend you go with a larger pallet no matter what, as well as get an auto focus feature and fast peircing options. This adds to the overall cost but if, down the road you want to trade/sell the machine it is a benifit to have these features and theyy will also make your laser processing more efficient and profitable.

Irregardless, whatever machine you choose to purchase be sure to employ a proactive maintenance schedule. It will make a big difference in your lasers performance and the life span of the machine. I have seen the results of the opposite and the cost is massive for those who chose to ignore the maintenance schedules provided by the mfg.

Best of luck.

 

[msandoval]

Ifin,

You are in the right track in your purchase of a laser machine and yes it will boil down to cost of ownership in the long run and the maintenance schedule and consumables you will have to replace.

Amada has the best service between these three companies. The Fanuc components they have in their machines (servo drives, control, laser)have been proven over time to be reliable and they are also using an RF Excited laser which the rest of the competition can only offer you a DC Excited resonator which eventually you will have to replace the glassware sooner. I think the only drawback for the Fanuc resonator is that you have replace the Turbo blower before 12K hours if you want to get a core credit.

Laserman16 is right about getting some of the features he mentioned above as this will add to the resale value of the machine should you want to sell it in the future and replace it with another. A couple of the OEMs have them standard already. Do also look at a machine that has a PC Based control and not just a plain CNC as these are outdated and do think of automation in the future.

Try to get your money's worth as much as you can since you will have a lot of bargaining power.

Good Luck

 

[ifin]

Thank you for all your input- I'm going to do some research and will keep posted on my progress. Thanks again.

 

[xhpnc]

The Mitsubishi is the only laser on the market that I'm aware of that doesn't require the resonator to be "refurbished" or replaced. It also has the lowest cost of ownership. They sell Hybrid's, flying optics and Certified Pre-owned lasers that come with a 6 months parts and labor warranty as well as installation, training and support. I highly recommend you check them out at mcmcachinery.com. These machines are extremely affordable and come in several different wattages, tables sizes and YES most of them have PC based controllers.

 

[ifin]

Thanks for your input - do you have any documentation that could help me as far looking at mits operating costs. does their used machines have PC based controls?.
I have heard that NTC that uses a PRC resonator claims - it doesnt need refurbished as well? what is your opinion?.

 

[msandoval]

All resonators need to be refurbished/rebuilt at some point or replace internal optics, vacuum pumps, seals, even turbo blowers on some. PRC is no different for a DC Excited Resonator. You will eventually have to replace something.

Trumpf (any resonator)and Rofin (Diffusion Cooled Resonator or Slab Laser) replace the whole resonator unit (a very costly affair even if they pro-rate the usage of the unit <Trumpf>), you cannot service it in the field and if you do it's only minor repairs.

The rest (Fanuc, Bystronic, PRC, Mitsubishi, Panasonic) can be worked on in the field but if there is a catastrophic turbo blower failure (as in bearings explode and destroys the glassware, but the risk of this happening would be minimal if you maintain it properly, not to mention there are extended warranties you can get included in the price of the machine) then you will be talking about replacing the unit itself.

Have the OEMs give you a cost of operation of their units which includes the chiller, dust collector, resonator, and machine electrical consumption and ask them to include a Preventive Maintenance Parts Kit that you will eventually need in the long run.

And once again good luck on your search

 

[xhpnc]

Ifin,

Some of the certified pre-owned machines have PC based controls and a few of the older ones still have CNC style controls. Most CPO machines are new enough now that they have PC based.

As far as the PRC goes...I disagree. If it has glass tubes in it then it's going to have to be rebuilt at some time.

I do have some operating costs spread sheets if you want to send me your email in a private message I'll send them to you.

To address what msandoval said. He is correct that all resonators do require some replacement parts. I.e. optics, blowers, etc. Here is where I draw the distinction though...the Mitsubishi has NO glass tubes. Their resonator is different from everyone else. In fact they have a patent on it. The Mitsubishi doesn't have a roots or turbine blower. There are 4 sealed bearing, oil-less blowers that turn at very low rpms. When they go bad (after about 15-20,000 hours) you can replace them yourself. 4 bolts and three wires. There is also a potentiometer so that when the blower starts failing you can increase the amperage to the blower and keep running while you wait for a new or rebuilt one to arrive. If the blower locks up then that's it. It just locks up. It doesn't explode or contaminate the entire resonator cavity. By the way the cost to replace a Mitsubishi blower is about $800.00. The cost to replace a roots or turbine blower is about $7k-$10k per blower and some resonators have two of them. So yes, all resonators require preventive maintenance but there is a big difference between spending $10,000 to replace the optics and blowers and clean the electrodes versus spending $40K-$70K to replace or rebuild an RF or DC excited resonator.

I can tell you this, I've been in manufacturing, been around and used lasers since 1992. I've had Trumpfs, Amadas, Mazaks and Mitsubishi and I can tell you hands down that the Mitsubishi has the lowest cost of ownership. The last company that I ran we had 5 Mitsubishis and 2 Trumpfs. The Mitsis ranged in age from 3 years old to 7 years old and the 2 Trumpfs were only two years old. When the new owner took over the business his first year owning the place he spent $80,000 maintaining all 5 Mitsubishi's and spent $120,000 on the 2 Trumpfs. I think that speaks volumes about the true cost of ownership when comparing a Mitsubishi Cross Flow resonator to ANY RF generator or DC excited resonator.

Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

 

[ifin]

thank for your input - do you have any recommendation of what year of manufacture ( if we were to go used). Also do you have any type of documentation that shows the cost of ownership?.

 

[xhpnc]

I would try to get one that is at least a 1999 if you want PC based controls. The best model year of machines would be the LV series. I think they started making those in 2002. Resonators range in power from 2000 watts to 4000 watts.

Yes, if you can give me an address I'll send it to you.

 

[Elitewp]

I know that you are looking for the "CIVIC" of the laser cutting world, but this bears looking into. A single machine that (with a simple change out) can cut and weld. Imagine the possibilities!

http://www.eliteweldingproducts.com/AC200.html

 

[Canlasertec]

I would also suggest you look into the LVD Strippit Orion 3015. The hybrid design lends itself to low purchase cost, low cost of operation, simple beam delivery and reliable operation. What I like about this machine is the hybrid motion system is very swift at close to 4,000IPM compared to other hybrids.

The machine can be 2.5kw or 4kw utilizing a full Fanuc package, resonator, control and motion system.

Good luck!

 

[BAM14]

The civic would have to be a Mazak STX or MarkII. We have an old STX that has 43K hours. We have never done any more than PM's on the machine to keep it going. MG laser offers great non factory service and support that is more economical than factory and much faster. Unfortunatley with a Civic you get Civic performance. It is only useful for small quantity and prototyping if you want to be competitve in laser cutting. We also own a Cinncinati CL-707 and are about to purchase a new Mitsubishi. The Cinncinati has provided very good production rates, but doesn't have the automation that Mits does. I would recommend all three. Mazak for small run. Cincy for production without automation(very easy to use control). Mits for automated production and expansion.