Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it 3

[vonsteimel]

This is a question that has plagued me for years and I've been on both sides of the fence with it. I originally started out as an Industrial drafter (AS Degreee) and worked as a drafter/designer. Then I went back to school and got a BS in Mechanical Engineering.

My question is: When a drawing is produced by a certified drafter and then it goes to an Engineer who checks the drawing. If the drawing has mistakes and it makes its way to production and leads to an accident, who will be responsible? The drafter or the engineer?

I feel as if the mistake was on the drafting portion (as in an incorrectly applied dimension/tolerance/GDT.etc) than it is the drafters fault. After all, very little is taught on ANSI drafting standards in Mechanical Engineering School so how can we expect the engineers to catch this?

However, if it is a mistake in the engineering/design of the part but the drawing was correct than it is the engineers fault.

Does anyone have any official answers or cases they can reference? Up to now, all I've ever heard was opinion on this topic... But if the Sh*t ever hits the fan, how will it really play out in the legal system? Who is responsible?

I've had engineers who felt they were responsible for the whole drawing & everything on it once they sign it; and as a result they would sometimes spend HOURS checking it (sometimes longer than I had spent making the drawing!). I would understand this notion if it were actually true that the engineer is totally responsible after checking & signing it... But this seems illogical... I've seen some engineers (who were not trained in drafting as I am) make some pretty pathetic drawings... So how can they be expected to be responsible for the drafting portion of which they know little about?

Feel free to give your opinion. I'm hoping someone who has "been there done that" or a lawyer will post some facts and put this question to rest once and for all.
Thanks,

VS

 

[CorBlimeyLimey]

I don't know any certified draughters, but I do know some who are certifiable.

 

[drawoh]

CheckerHater,

Let's try to construct a functional engineering and design office.

The designer sits at a CAD station designing something. Possibly, and engineer is looking over the shoulder of a CAD operator, but I don't think this is functional. CAD is user friendly. It is not like back in the days of drafting boards, and people with good line-work and lettering.

When job is complete, the drawings are checked by someone. In many organizations, the checker is juniour, and the company lacks standards, so all the checker is looking at is dimensions and spelling, if he knows what is good for him. We cannot hold him responsible for design errors.

In a saner environment, the checker is an experienced designer with good overall knowledge. The designers and projects managers respect him. Still, there can be a conflict. If this is hard to resolve, I am in favour of the designer taking responsibility, and sending the drawings out without the checked signature. He is putting his ass on the line, obviously.

There has to be some sort of organization underlying the person responsible for decisions. If the design checker is doubling as the coffee boy, he cannot be held responsible for anything, other than spilling coffee.

--
JHG

 

[CheckerHater]

Drawoh,

This is why I believe “checker” should be assignment rather than profession.
CAD is easy, you said it yourself.
So, instead of engineer/designer/detailer/checker chain why not to have engineer A assigned to check work of engineer B and vise versa.
In larger groups you can even have setup similar to what pmarc described in his post from 9/20:
Engineer with better knowledge of manufacturing could do feasibility check and engineer with better knowledge of standards could check the compliance, and sign the drawings respectively.
All of them still able to do something productive rather than justify number of red mark-ups.
How’s that for “functional engineering and design office”?

 

[ctopher]

All drawings have (or should have) an approval line or box.
That initial, or signature, is responsible for that design interpreted on the drawing.

Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

 

[TheTick]

Lots of barking about the meaning of titles. Lots of "should" and "feel".

Titles mean nothing. Names of boxes on prints mean less. In exempt industry, companies are responsible to the public (vendors, bystanders, and customers), end of story.

As far as responsibility within the company, that is determined by the company's policies and procedures and the people charged with carrying them out. A name on a certificate or degree does not change this.

 

[leeekim]

Hi all,

I'll try to summarize what we are taught about law in our field. In Ontario, Canada it is up to the engineer who signs the drawing to accept responsibilty. He may have others detail but it is his duty to ensure that the drawings are checked. In the unfortunate event where there is a breach of duty, where that duty was owed, and damages are present then it is up to the courts to decide on how much liability ($) both the engineer and the company that employeed the engineer owe the damaged party. If there is more than one to blame than the courts would look at concurrent tortfeasor to share the damages. This would fall under tort law, which I believe is similar to those in the States. But check with your juridiction to be sure.

The textbook where I got this from...

http://www.amazon.ca/Law-Professional-Engineers-Donald-Marston/dp/0070985219

 

[Belanger]

But that's for "professional engineers," which is a specific registration under a government for the design of bridges, buildings, etc. I believe the bulk of this thread was dealing with regular ol' engineers, who are employed by a big company (or small, for that matter), and who are not registered PEs.

John-Paul Belanger
Certified Sr. GD&T Professional
Geometric Learning Systems

http://www.gdtseminars.com

 

[drawoh]

leeekim,

You are assuming that engineer who signed off on the drawings has continuing control over them. In lots of organizations, someone will demand a change, and supervise a low level drafter as they make the change. The engineer will find out about all this, later.

--
JHG

 

[vonsteimel]

Indeed Belanger,
in the mechanical engineering world I live in, PE's are about as common as honest politicians... So to summarize it all, this is what I'm getting; In your typical company, the engineers are protected by the corporation they work for. So when the "fecal matter is on a collision trajectory with the rotary oscillator", it is the company for which the engineer works that will take the fall. And then the company can distribute blame & disciplinary action however they see fit (up to and including termination).

But this does nothing to ease the engineers who want to spend more time checking the drawings than it took the drafters to drawing them -- to the extent that they would rather let someone who is ill qualified do the checking & sign the "check box" than have to check it themselves within a reasonable amount of time & sign the "check box" themselves... Perhaps pride plays a role in this quagmire...
Thanks,

VS

 

[nobog]

Who's responsible?

The company with the logo on the lower left of the print.

We have drawings with 6 signatures on 'em - and not one of those six people are with the company anymore.

JK

 

[vonsteimel]

Are your intitial JK or are you"Just Kidding"?

 

[nobog]

Actually its James Kurk - just like the Star Trek guy expect my name came first and I use a "u".

 

[ctopher]

"The company with the logo on the lower left of the print."

All companies I have worked at, it's on the lower right.


Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

 

[vonsteimel]

Nobog, Your looking at the backside.... turn the drawing over

 

[nobog]

Ooops,

I must have been thinking I was in the lower hemisphere !!!

JK