Who is the Microsoft System Engineer!!!? 8

[ismet]

hello real engineers

Do you see in your country newspapers that it says being Microsoft System Enginner.Who are they?being engineering is not easy as they think.anybody does not belong an engineer certificate as a short time.What do national engineering organization think about issue.

 

[DaveVikingPE]

An engineer fixes engines
An engineer makes war engines.
An engineer drives a train locomotive.
A military engineer blows things up.

Somewhere down the line there's a Microsoft System Engineer. Don't be upset; it could be worse: think how a medical doctor must feel when someone who wrote a Ph.D. dissertation (in music, let's say) detailing the influence of Black Sabbath on early 1990's death metal music is referred to as "Doctor."

What I don't like is a new term we're going to see being taken very seriously by the ignorant press is "imagineer." I first came upon the term at Disney World. It's what they call their people who design the rides. Now it seems to be applied to failed architects who are good with computer rendering programs.

 

[Haf]

Imagineer? That's a good one. I've heard IE's referred to as "imaginary engineers," and you can usually get those industrial folks pretty riled up with that one.

Me personally, I don't get that wrapped up with titles. Most people know that they don't mean that much. Anyway, I don't think too many people would hire a Microsoft system engineer to build a bridge. I sometimes think that people that get upset about these things are taking themselves a bit too seriously. So next time you see a janitor referred to as a sanitary engineer, just have a good laugh and move on with life.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

Haf

 

[Rich2001]

Some states and countries have and are taking legal action against microsoft for calling their certified technicians engineers.

Here is a copy of the press release from The Canadian Council of Professional Engineers



Media Release



The following release was sent out by the Canadian Council of Professional Engineers.



For Immediate Release



Canadian Council of Professional Engineers and Microsoft Corp. Agree on use of “Engineer” title



Ottawa, Ont., May 11, 2001 – After discussions with Canada’s engineering profession, Microsoft Corp. will advise Canadian holders of its MCSE certification not to call themselves engineers or use the full title Microsoft Certified System Engineers.



Microsoft’s decision should prevent Canadian holders of the MCSE certification from inadvertently breaking provincial and territorial laws, which protect the public by restricting the use of the titles “engineer” and “engineering” and the practice of engineering in Canada to licensed professional engineers. It should also ensure that the engineering profession’s licensing bodies will not be required to take enforcement action against MCSE holders who mistakenly use the title engineer or otherwise hold themselves out as having been qualified to practice engineering.



“We are very pleased by Microsoft’s decision,” said Marie Lemay, P.Eng., CEO of the Canadian Council of Professional Engineers (CCPE). “Microsoft has demonstrated corporate leadership by acting in the best interest of the MCSE community. Holders of the MCSE certification are not licensed or regulated by the engineering profession. If they mistakenly use the titles “engineer” and “engineering” the provincial or territorial engineering associations/order would have to take enforcement action against them. Its decision is good for the information technology industry, good for MCSE holders, and good for the engineering profession.”



The engineering profession, represented by CCPE and several provincial engineering regulatory associations, met with Microsoft in Seattle late last year to explain the legal issues surrounding the use of the title “engineer” in Canada, and to ask the corporation to stop referring to holders of the MCSE credential as engineers. Canadian MCSEs have received certification as Microsoft Certified Systems Engineers, which could lead them to mistakenly misuse the title “engineer.”



“We are very pleased to have reached an agreement with the engineering profession and to support it,” said Anne Marie McSweeney, the acting Director of Microsoft Certification and Skills Assessment. “It opens the door for closer cooperation among all organizations in the information technology industry and the engineering profession in Canada. As the Microsoft credentials continue to evolve, it is our goal to ensure they maintain the highest level of relevance to the industry and represent leaders in cutting-edge technology.”



Microsoft is currently researching alternatives for the MCSE credential worldwide, which could result in a new name for the credential later this year.



CCPE is the national organization of the provincial and territorial associations/ordre that govern the practice of engineering in Canada and license the country’s 157,000 professional engineers. Established in 1936, CCPE serves the associations/ordre, which are its constituent and sole members, through the delivery of national programs which ensure the highest standards of engineering education, professional qualifications and ethical conduct.



-30-



For More Information Contact:


Terence Davis, Manager, Communications, CCPE


613 232-2474, ext. 238

 

[swertel]

I wish everyone could be like Canada.

--Scott
Your neighbor to the south.

 

[brad]

My two-cents on "Imagineer" at Disney--for what it's worth, these actually ARE engineering positions. I had an initial discussion which would've lead to an interview if I had desired (I decided they weren't offering enough, so I turned it down). They were specifically looking for MS engineering graduates, so this is not a situation where they are dumbing down engineering.

Imagineers at Disney are their engineers. It's a rather vomitously cutesy term, but in my opinionit does not diminish the term "engineer" any more than companies who hire CAD operators out of high school and call them "engineers".

Brad

 

[PM]

Anyone interested in the MCSE / CCPE negotiations, . . .now dispute, might be interested in the IT's industry's take on this. The following two URL's present a couple of articles from Computing Canada's on-line newsletter. The first article was puiblished on Wednesday and the second only last night. Looks like thing are heating up.

http://www.itbusiness.ca/userredirect.asp?linkid=17843&userid=5

http://www.itbusiness.ca/index.asp?theaction=61&sid=49481

Regards,

 

[stressriser]

A worthless yet intersting note:
Seems to me that Solid Edge (Unigraphics?) had a product called Imagineer Technical. I still have a copy somewhere. It was a little sketch pad that allowed non-technical people (CEOs and such) to draw pictures of their ideas and send them down to Engineering.

Real worthless stuff.

 

[Meek]

What Microsoft fails to recognize is that the IEEE alone has over 300,000 engineers worldwide, many of them can potentially influence future purchase decisions on Microsoft products. Some of these engineers are no doubt offended by what Microsoft is doing with the title "engineer" and some are not. When you consider all the other engineering groups in civil, mechanical and chemical engineering etc..., the number of university graduate engineers in the world can number the millions. Is it good business practice for Microsoft to take on the engineering profession?

 

[jons999]

You can be considered an engineer if you are working in an engineering field, even if you dont have a degree or a PE license, or so i've been told. These people are doing computer work, possibly in a computer engineering type field so i have no problem calling them engineers even though they don't really 'engineer' anything.

 

[StressGuy]

Not if your state board hears about it. Your only chance is if you fall under the "industry exemption" as some states have. Even at that, you can't refer to yourself as an engineer to people outside your company. Edward L. Klein
Pipe Stress Engineer
Houston, Texas

All opinions expressed here are my own and not my company's.

 

[dom]

The term engineer means to use maths and science to solve a problem according to my dictionary can't see anything about needing an exam to do that. In England calling yourself an engineer means you wear a boiler suit and work in a machine shop because you couldn't get a real job thats why no one wants to do it anymore and we now have a shortage of engineering staff.
D.GRANT

http://www.manusci.co.uk

 

[Rich2001]

Generally calling yourself an Engineer in public in the United States, means you are a Licensed Professional Engineer. Though there is the Industrial Exemption as mentioned above.

In the US:
Only a licensed engineer may prepare, sign and seal, and submit engineering plans and drawings to a public authority for approval, or seal engineering work for public and private clients.

Licensure for individuals who wish to pursue a career as a consulting engineer or a private practitioner is not something that is merely desirable; it is a legal requirement for those who are in responsible charge of work, be they principals or employees

For those in education, many states are requiring that those individuals teaching engineering be licensed.

In addition, state engineering boards are increasingly seeking and obtaining the authority to impose civil penalties against unlicensed individuals who unlawfully engage in the practice of engineering.

One being licensed as a PE in the United States, or PEng in Canada is analogues to registration as a Chartered Engineer (CEng )in the UK, or Chartered Professional Engineer (CPEng) in Australia. The idea behind licensing or registering is to protect the public.

 

[gabe71]

The "Engineer" title needs to be cleansed from all those Microsoft, Cisco, Novell, etc... titles. They have nothing to do with engineering. They need to take on a different name, for example, -ICMITE (I Couldn't Make It Through Engineering)....MCSE=MCSICMITE or CNE=CNICMITE.

 

[Dave47]

I am from Canada where our professional bodies are trying to discourage Microsoft "grads" from illegally using the term "engineer" in their titles. In Canada all provinces and territories licence engineers and the term "engineer" is actually legislated by the provincial governments. Although many incorrectly use the term Engineer it appears to me that a far greater number in the U.S. use the term incorrectly. I was wondering if all 50 states have a licensing body and if so do they try and hinder the use of the term Engineer?

 

[Rich2001]

>I was wondering if all 50 states have a licensing body?

In the US there are 55 jurisdiction (all 50 states ,Washington DC, Guam, Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, Nothern Mariana Islands) links to each board can be found on the NCEES website

http://www.ncees.org/

.

>if so do they try and hinder the use of the term Engineer?
Yes & No. Some jurisdictions more than others.

 

[PBroad]

Seems that Microsoft has rescinded their agreement with Professional Engineers in Canada so the above glad-ragging is no longer valid. Perhaps MCSE really does mean nothing more than Rosie O'Donoghue's "Domestic Engineer".

It may be a cliché that the price to pay for democracy is partcipation and if we do not participate democracy will be taken away. Montesquieu wrote in his work "The Spirit of the Laws" : "Peoples have the governments they deserve". This applies especially to our professional institutes and we engineers can have no one to blame but ourselves, in North America or Europe.

 

[SomeWhere]

Hi!

I'm a canadian working in IT. I'm not an engineer nor a MCSE.

I know many people who are engineers, studying full time (you know, like 40 hours a week)at least for 4-5 years just to enter the profession. They study maths, physics, chemistry, (real things that are not related to a trademark - you know, science)and many other fields depending on their specialization (civil, computer, geology, etc.). They don't do little "adaptive trainers" and then say they really study hard, they don't exhibit little hologram cards to show they're qualified : they do the job and you know you couldn't do it without them.

I know also a few MCSE, some of them being very good at what they do (they do little), but anything they can do, I can do with little training. They usually don't write well because they're not used to writing, only to click and choose the "most appropriate answer", they don't even master a single computer language oh but yes the can configure IIS and try to implement Active directory à la Microsoft... wow! Imagine a mechanical engineer knowing only how to repair a Ford engine and this image just shows you that MCSE are really only MS power users sales rep. in disguise. Well I don't want to single out only this title because as far as I'm concerned, many other certifications are really a sham. If at least those people had a bachelor in Computer science: even then they wouldn't be engineers, but at least they'd be credible! At least they could do some algebra. They're lazy people who want a glorious title. Well it won't happen.

I find IT to be really improvisation when compared to engineering. Can you be certified in improvisation? Working in IT, using logic and a good method (intelligence is in the brain, not on the card) and writing well, I could acheive the same results as any MCSE and I was more praised by my employer than any of them... But I couldn't do the same in engineering right? Come on, is configuring a server through a GUI an act of engineering. Is making a script such an act? I laugh very hard.

It's really a farce that MCSEs in Canada would like to use the title Engineer : they simply don't deserve it. It just goes to show that knowledge is more and more corporate. If we swallow all the bull from corporate america I think soon being an engineer will mean having the expertise to open a Coca Cola can!

We should never let that happen. I hope you engineers out there will strongly defend you profession against mediocrity.

Somewhere.