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Why Crawlspaces instead of Slab on grade?

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laminarflow

Mechanical
Nov 23, 2001
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I have designed a house using my mechanical engineering knowledge and lots of research. The house will be built in the Pacific Northwest on the Olympic Peninsula. When discussing my design with contractors in that area, I was constantly questioned about building on a slab. They kept insisting I should build with a crawlspace. I hate crawlspaces. I just can't stand walking around and hearing the slightest thump thump, cold feet, the added expense of a foundation and a floor, and mainly, the lack of thermal mass.

The contractors and builders would state reasons not to build on a slab such as, moisture problems, hard on knees and hips, can't easily re-model and move the kitchen, and lack of insulation. In talking to forward thinking builders, engineers, and from my own knowledge, I realize that none of these are issues. There are a few homes in my area on a slab, which are properly built that work well. I know the owners. Some are passive solar, but more on that later.

So I ask builders in the PNW why they build with a crawlspace, and have yet to get a real answer. One answer I get from builders is, “that’s just the way we build here”. I’m guessing there are several reasons. Could it be a hold over from when concrete was expensive or non-existent and wood was almost free? Could it be that builders can get more money for a crawlspace house? One reason I heard that makes sense is, “We’re building on crawlspaces, making money, so why change?” I even had one builder state that with equivalent houses, one on a slab, the other on a crawlspace, the slab house will be perceived as a “cheaper” house.

My design consists of a perimeter foundation footing, perimeter walls using ICF’s, and first floor walls made of ICF’s. Insulation will be on the very bottom by the perimeter footings, then about 2.5 feet of compacted fill, then the internal cap slab. This is to capture as much insulated thermal mass as possible with this design. Radiant tubing will be down in the insulated earth box and in the slab. When the solar collectors have satisfied the slab, they then pump heat down in the earth box for later use. Such a design will “coast” through a month long power outage with freezing outside temperatures and should only loose a few degrees a week. And with PV panels to power the radiant pump, a power outage will be a thermal non-issue. The house will look normal but be passive solar in that most of the windows will be south facing. No serious calculations were done, just good sound design practices utilized. So what about the summer? With a passive solar design, there will be minimal gain in the summer due to the high sun. And with high thermal mass, the house will be an average of the heat in during the day and heat out during the night. No forced air needed here.

There is a house on the Peninsula, well actually many, poorly designed and placed with large expanses of glass facing west and on a crawlspace. When seen in a summer afternoon, all windows are covered with shades and I’ll be the AC is running. It’s the sun. It’s thermonuclear. This is with the ambient temperature in the 60’s. And because of the low thermal mass, it’s conceivable that the heater might be needed the next morning. Low thermal mass, big temperature swings, and the more active the heating and cooling system will be.
 
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I don't know how far north... but crawlspaces provide an area of storage and permit warmer construction. SOG foundations tend to be very cold. It also provides a space for mechanical and often heating systems or HRV's are installed in the crawlspace. It provides a lower location for a sump pit which improves moisture conditions and the thermal envelope. The savings in concrete is real, and often used with PWF foundations. In some northern areas, concrete can be extremely costly. The perimeter depth to the footings can be reduced using extruded, type 4 insulation.

just some ramblings, Dik
 
Well, if one is stupid enough to sink an uninsulated SOG in the wet earth, they deserve to have cold feet. I lived on an uninsulated SOG in Louisiana and without question, my feet were cold in the winter. Concrete availability and cost are a real issue. But on the Olympic Peninsula, concrete is $70.00 a yard.

Putting ducting in the crawlspace is not good. There will be thermal losses. Radiant heat in an insulated slab is much more comfortable and is less expensive than forced heated air. But the contractor will not tell you that.

Even if what you say is correct, the benefits and comfort of thermal mass overcome the few shortfalls of having the space in a crawlspace.

The best way to control moisture is to not have it present. Direct the water away from the house.
 
You have to direct the water away, in particular in areas which have significant cold weather. In addition you have to use PEVB to separate the slab from moisture below.

Having said that, my experience has been that even with perimeter insulation and underslab insulation, they tend to be cold and colder without underslab insul. The only manner in which they are warm is if hydronic in-slab heating is used (and I've done several of these). In these areas, hydronics are more expensive than forced air, although there is likely a payback time.

It's common to put ducting in the crawlspace from the furnace. The space is relatively clear and most of the heatloss is up through the main floor.

Dik
 
"You have to direct the water away, in particular in areas which have significant cold weather."

Why?

"In addition you have to use PEVB to separate the slab from moisture below."

Why?

"Having said that, my experience has been that even with perimeter insulation and underslab insulation, they tend to be cold and colder without underslab insul."

No way. Show me the math.

"The only manner in which they are warm is if hydronic in-slab heating is used (and I've done several of these)."

Hydronic will heat the slab, of course.

"In these areas, hydronics are more expensive than forced air, although there is likely a payback time."

Hydronic is more expensive because it is new. Price out the materials from Radiantec and see for yourself. Don't think you need a 5K boiler either. A $300.00 water heater will be fine for the average well insulated house.

"It's common to put ducting in the crawlspace from the furnace. The space is relatively clear and most of the heatloss is up through the main floor."

Yea, well I've lived in a rental on a crawlspace and when the resistive electric forced air comes on there is a blast of cold air first before the hot air warms the ducts. In that house, it is cheaper to run all the lights, computers, TV, oven, etc. than to run the forced air. In that house in the winter it is a waste to use fluorescent instead of incandescent. Think about it.

 
I'm not disputing that you have to direct the water away... from perimeter drains to free drainage as well as sloping the grade away from the slab by 2% min slope.

Dik
 
Interesting,
The residential construction in my area, and in the very cold ski areas, tends to be about 50/50. When it is all said and done, the homeowner's preference seems to be the final issue. I have dealt with people from all over the U.S. and either system is considered to be the 'cheap' system somewhere. I make no attempt to argue someone out of their preference.

I have lived on both and I prefer a properly built crawlspace. Properly built slabs tend to have a high initial cost, especially if shallow groundwater is a problem. Poorly designed houses, lots of glass, do not perform well with either crawlspace or slab. Well designed houses, from a heating/cooling & conservation standpoint, are not very popular.

I have consulted on many moving foundations and moisture related problems. Either floor system has weaknesses. In my experience, the crawlspace tends to be easier to repair. Over the longterm, most structural and mechanical repairs on slabs tend to be more expensive. The key appears to be to build in a manner which will minimize later repair.

"You have to direct the water away, in particular in areas which have significant cold weather."

Why? I HAVE NEVER SEEN A WET SUBGRADE/SLAB IN A SKI/COLD RESORT AREA WHICH WAS CONSIDERED COMFORTABLE OR PERFORMING WELL.

"In addition you have to use PEVB to separate the slab from moisture below."

Why? MOISTURE COMING THROUGH A SLAB CREATES MORE PROBLEMS THAN JUST POTENTIAL HEAT LOSS.
 
The "Why's" were not asked correctly.

What I meant was why is water in contact with a basement wall or slab bad. I'm intereted i the technical reason. Here is the answer I was looking for.

I was in a hotel in MA in January and the slab was in contact with the snow outside. There was condensation on the floor in the corner of my room's tile floor. Water in contact with a slab will conduct the heat away fast because water has high heat capacity and thermal conductivity. If snow is piled up against the edge or the ground is frozen, the concrete will loose heat fast and condensate will form on the inside. It amazes me when I see basement walls sprayed with water proofing and dirt piled up on the outside. Then for insulation, a wall is framed on the inside and insulated with fiberglass. What a recipe for mold. I would bet that most wet basement walls get blamed on water "migrating" through the concrete when the actual problem is condensation. I'm not talking about a genuine crack and water is pouring in, in that case, the basement is really leaking.

A poorly designed crawlspace will perform better than a poorly built slab. This is because a crawlspace is disconnected from the earth and could not be in contact with large amounts of water. A poorly designed slab or basement could be in contact with large amounts of water.

But, a properly designed slab or basement will perform better and be more stable thermally because of the coupling with large amounts of dry earth.

I would question the higher cost and I have quotes to prove otherwise.

Search: "high thermal mass homes" to learn more.
 
In Coloardo we always try for slab on grade unless the soil is expansive. Sometime owners are willing to take the risk of slab heaving so we do slab on grade anyway on expansive soil.
 
COEngineer, do you insulate in CO? How much is concrete in CO? Is radiant heat used often? Is Radiant expensive and do they use complex systems with boilers?
 
I cant answer you questions laminar, I just design the structural. I am not a contractor. The nice mountain homes we design mostly do have radiant heat. Just google it if you want to more about it. If I am not mistaken, it is all connected to your water heater right? If you want to have slab on grade you need to put drainage around the footing of your foundation. Also you need to put 4" of clean gravel underneath your slab to take care of the moisture.
 
COEngineer, radiant heat water can be heated in many ways. There are many different types of systems. But in most systems, a simple water heater can be used. Some tie it into the domestic system, some use a stand alone system. A stand alone system using solar is a good idea. But keep in mind, with a properly designed passive solar high thermal mass house, not much energy will be needed for heating. And in the summer, high thermal mass will keep the peaks low in the afternoon.

With slab on grade, it all depends on the site. Each situation should be looked at fresh. Too many in engineering only listen and never research or think on their own. Keep the water away from the thermal mass and insulate the thermal mass. How it's done does not matter. If the site is on top of a hill of gravel, only insulation is needed. If it's in a flat area, raise it up on some compacted insulated fill. It is a misconception that water will somehow find the slab and migrate to it. Shed the water away and insulate the slab.
 
We overlapped CO. There is no need for antifreeze and it might not even be code in a hydronic system. It should never see freezing temperatures. Solar collectors sometimes use antifreeze because of freezing, but a drainback solar system is also used.

What exactly is a "nice" house? I have heard of extremely high quotes for hydronic systems. It's probably because of the newness and builders are reluctant to change for fear of eating a house. Price out the materials and labor and you will see what I mean. If heating only is needed, it can be very reasonable to install a radiant system. I know several owners who installed their own because of the high quotes.
 
Well,, if you have radiant heat on main and upper floor, then you I usually design it with an extra 10-15 psf. Nice houses in mountain area are probably at least 3 Million. It is definately something want to install when you are building it, not an upgrade.
 
The Winnipeg area has a Freezing Index of 1904 degree days... and the index for many areas to the north is greater. The index is likely a little greater than your environs, hence the greater reliance on antifreeze systems. I haven't heard of a plain water system used in these areas.

Dik

Dik
 
I'm not sure why a system, even in very cold climates, would need anti-freeze. It's a heating system. Even if the house was vacant for weeks, I can't imagine the temp dropping below freezing on an insulated slab. The residual heat would last quite a while. And assuming a crawlspace house had radiant tubing and did drop below freezing, would it not also freeze the other water pipes in the house? What about those?

I'm thinking it could be a case of "what's your budget" construction. A builder asked me that and I said I have no budget, but I do have an idea of what I would spend on building my house and know one will know that but me.
 
laminar, the radiant heat goes out to the driveway and deck. It will be freezing, but you just have to make sure you dont turn the boiler setting to "vacation" unless it is summer time.
 
Well excuse me! Well in that case, yes, antifreeze would be helpful. But I would bet that with energy prices headed in the present vector and magnitude, that is not a common practice. I guess for solar heating I would approve.

Whoever you know with heated driveways, see if you can get me invited to the next party! Got to be a good one. Salmon, fresh veggies, Cabernet, Chocolates.....
 
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