Why do car models continually grow?

[RossABQ]

If there is one dynamic that seems to be constant across all models, makes, manufacturers, it seems to be growth -- in length/width/weight. You almost never see a car reduced.

Ex.: Minivans; the original Caravan/Voyager was a 4-cyl (only) that weighed around 3300# fully dressed up (the basic model was down near 3,000). Even with a feedback carb they were good for around 21/25 EPA mpg. Now you can't find one that is much under 4,000#, all are V6's, mileage is probably 18/28 (due to EFI and OD trans). If a minivan the size of the originals with EFI and OD were built, I have no doubt it would be good for 25/35. All are what used to be "Grand Caravan" length, I don't believe they even make the "short" ones anymore.

Ex.: SUV's; the original Explorers were V6 only, weighed around 3500 even with AWD, were certainly no mileage champs but were still in the 20's. They were also pretty reasonably priced. Now they are just immense! Probably all V8's and in the teens for mileage, near 5000# and $40k+.

Ex.: Honda Civic; they are now as big as an Accord used to be, and the Accord is as big as a Buick. Now they have the Fit down at the low end. Toyota, with the Corolla and Camry, same story.

There are many more examples. Historically in the US model lines, this phenomenon was in full swing throughout the '60's and '70's and progressed to the point of ridiculously sized land yachts that barely fit in a garage.

Why are we still continually moving toward bigger and heavier, instead of smaller cars, given the need for better economy??

 

[MikeHalloran]

Most Explorers are V6s; the V8s are plainly marked as such on the tailgate, and not all that common. I have one of each. They get about the same mileage on flat ground and in traffic. The V8 uses a little more gas in hilly country because it doesn't slow down so much on uphill grades.

I think I know why cars sold in America tend to grow after introduction: Americans are, um, well fed. After a couple years of opening the door to grab the seatbelt, they decide they'd like the same car, but just a little bigger, next time. Whoever has that just a little bigger size, gets the sale.

The car doesn't have to be a land yacht outside, but I think the sweet spot for interior dimensions is somewhere near what you got in a fifties 'merican station wagon, which is just a tick bigger than the Explorer.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[pauljohn]

New/upgraded safety measures might be one reason. Airbags come standard all around, roll cages, side protection. What about more electronic equipment, power windows, power locks, power anntenae, heated seats, motorised seats, seats that fold flat, storage spaces everywhere, 6 CD changers, dvd players, more speakers, more cupholders, etc. etc.

 

[evelrod]

Naw, guys. Since I got hooked on cars in 1949 I have seen the phenom in almost every car introduced to the American market.
You build a nice neat little car to meet a perceived demand and market it. All goes well for the first year and then the complaints (recommendations) start..."It's a great car, but it sure would be better if it has a little more *****". After a few years you get a car that is either totally out to reach in price or completely out of the market spectrum it was intended to fill!
It's the American way. Toasters to jets, works every time.

Rod

 

[patprimmer]

A few bits of grass roots philosophy.

Be careful what you wish for lest you get it.

A camel is a horse that was designed by a committee, or in this case redesigned by customer feed back.

You need the product to evolve with the traditional customer.

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[RossABQ]

I understand the comments; BUT as soon as a model grows to about ~30% bigger than it originally was, they come out with a new model that is just about the original size! i.e., the Escape is pretty darn close to the size of the original Explorer (may even weigh more).

 

[GregLocock]

"You build a nice neat little car to meet a perceived demand and market it. All goes well for the first year and then the complaints (recommendations) start..."It's a great car, but it sure would be better if it has a little more *****". After a few years you get a car that is either totally out to reach in price or completely out of the market spectrum it was intended to fill!
"

Yes. Many of the people you ask about features for the new car are the previous customers for that car. Few will agree that it needs to be made smaller, have fewer cupholders, could drop the electric seat adjuster - basically, although nobody uses every feature, the ones that do use a given feature are more enthusiastic than the ones who don't.

If you've ever been in a product clinic, did you suggest that maybe they could reduce the max power of the engine? Or the top speed? and ditch 4 of the speakers? No.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[safetydan]

The reason for all the changes is because of market demand. All of the auto-makers aren't in buisness to sell what they want to make. They sell what we want to buy. The auto industry spends billions of dollars doing in market research to find out what the public wants, then they design cars to meet those demands. Americans have almost always wanted more, it is simply the nature of the society. Because of this, the car makers design their vehicles to have more features, more power, more room, more capabilities. You are seeing the wheels of American greed and self importance driving down the road beside you.

 

[GregLocock]

No need to pick on American greed, the same happens all around the world.

Look at the Mk I Cortina. Compare it with a Mk IV.

Look at the Mk I Golf. Or the original Civic

etc etc



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[RossABQ]

Greg, The Golf is one of the cars that puzzles me most. Have you seen that the latest ones weigh 3200 lbs??? Yet they are within inches physically of an old Rabbit from the '70's. They weigh more than my Saab 900!

 

[BrianPetersen]

Actually, the current Mk5 Golf is quite a bit bigger than a Mk1 Golf/Rabbit.

A current VW Polo is about the size of a Mk2 Golf, and a current Mk5 Jetta is about the size that the Passat was through the 1990's.

Every vehicle generation grows because they have to advertise "more trunk space, more legroom, more more more". For example, the Mk4 VW Golf/Jetta was criticized for lack of rear seat legroom. Well, DUH, the Mk5 comes out and the legroom problem has been addressed, by making the car bigger!

 

[GregLocock]

Crash. Every car is now 4 or 5 star. That is a lot of inefficient metal. And airbags. etc.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[MechanicalChef]

Buying a "small" minvan or SUV is almost counterintuitive. The passport and CRV still aren't too terribly big. But, the market still exists for bigger cars, because some people are willing to dump their money into an suv. *gag* I'll gladly pay more for gas if I get to see dealer lots filled with unsold SUV's and trucks collecting dust. The market is only factor which will combat the fattening of domestically sold cars. In the meantime, small cars still exist: Yaris, Fit, Aveo, Rabbit, xA, etc.

 

[RossABQ]

I just got back from a business trip to southern California. There is no hope. Gas is $3.15 for regular and it has not made any impact on their commuting habits. They are pouring hundreds of millions into infrastructure to make commuting less painful. I wish I were a highway engineer there, they appear to have unlimited budgets and carte blanche with respect to any land they need. There are no less than three 10-lane interstates in San Diego alone, only two railroad tracks. I think I'll buy a Hummer...

 

[evelrod]

It's not just California. I lived in Albuquerque in the 60's (we put up the tramway) and I just passed through a while back...Man, every town from El Paso to San Diego has gone plumb crazy over freeways. Bigger freeways---more traffic. More traffic---bigger freeways...I don't see an end to this madness in my lifetime. I've posted here many times that nothing is going to change until at least $5/gal and complete change will come at $10/gal., maybe more. I'm not crazy about paying $3.299 for gas as I did this past weekend...it did not stop me from going to the track, however.

Rod

 

[RossABQ]

Yes, you are correct about ABQ. They just spent $230 million on one intersection yet bus stops have cheap benches with no sun shades, and are 10 ft from traffic moving at up to 50 mph. Wonder why no one rides the bus....

 

[patprimmer]

In the newer countries like Australia, USA Canada etc, the cities have mostly evolved with a suburban sprawl. This means very large area of low population density for urban regions.

This means parking at home is not a problem, and even parking at shopping centres and at workplaces is often not a problem.

In these circumstances, having enough rail infrastructure to put a railway station within walking distance of most homes is impossible, so the option becomes walk to bus, catch bus to train, catch bus from train to final destination, or just get into car and drive. Guess what everyone does.

High density cities, like New York, London, Paris, Tokyo etc, parking at home or near home is mostly impossible. With railway stations a reasonable walk from most people, it is easier to walk to the train than to where your car is parked. Guess what everyone does.

Ideology won't change that. Lots of purists get power then waste a lot of our money trying, but it simply does not work. People take the most convenient option.

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[ghettoracer]

Americans are getting fatter every year. That's why the cars gets bigger. ^_^ That's my theory/opinion.

I was just in Japan for about 30 days and Taiwan for about 10 days. The first thing I noticed after exiting custom in LAX was I notice overall how fat Americans are. Regardless of age, 2/3 Americans appears overweight to me. It makes me gross looking at all these fat people, especially young kids.

In Europe and Asia in general, they have much smaller cars overall.

 

[Rob45]

Ross:
You asked this question on an engineering forum: does that mean you think this is an engineering issue?

At the risk of seeming flip, allow me to point out that auto makers build cars that their customers demand, not the cars that their engineers would *like* to build.
Those companies that do otherwise are shall we say "penalized" in the marketplace.

Examples abound, but let me mention just a few:
Nash
American Motors
Packard

 

[RossABQ]

Actually I suspect that some of the growth may be engineering driven these days; primarily due to safety/crashworthiness. It is clearly not entirely an engineering issue.

As much as Nash et al were penalized, don't you think Honda and others have been rewarded in the past for building "right sized" cars? (CRX, original Civics, Mini's, etc). Part of my question is whether the mfr's are wrong in perceiving that ever-larger, heavier, etc cars are "what the public wants". I think they may be losing as many customers with a larger car as they gain.