Why is there no section on this forum for sales engineering? 11

[HydroScope]

Hi There,

I have fairly recently become a sales engineer, for a industrial automation company. having sucessfully found this website usefull for technical issues in the past. I thought I would come back for some so called side issues as an engineer in my case "selling" as a profession. The products that my company deal with are the usual, servo/stepper motors, screw jacks, linear motors, through to linear bearing, worm drive slew rings. We have a broad range of clients from the defence force, mining, aerospace, theatre and factory automation. Obviously we make our money from advising our clients on our products. Before I became a sales engineer I had no experience and no "sales training" now my company would like me to get involved with some sales training. Assuming there are many sales engineers on this forum, I would like to ask two questions? 1) Is sales engineering not seen as a branch of engineering and hence does not exsist as a branch on this forum 2) Do you know of any usefull sales training that a sales engineer can make use of? as the boss needs an answer soon on a training course I would like to do. ;O) I'm struggling to find a course because I don't understand the so called skills I need apart from the obvious "knowing our product range very well". Thanks in advance for your help ;o)

 

[SomptingGuy]

What degree do you have?

- Steve

 

[HydroScope]

Mechanical Engineering why?

 

[SomptingGuy]

Forgive me if I sounded condescending, it sounded from your first post that you were not an engineer.

I always thought the sales skills were something you were born with. Training courses can hone and direct them, not create them.

- Steve

 

[HydroScope]

yeah thats why I am struggling to find adecent sales course they sound like "get rich quick scheme's". people buy from me because of good advise not something I can say or act out. I good humor and personality is about as far as it goes for me.

 

[Ron]

HydroScope...no "sales engineering" is not a discipline of engineering. It is a title often misused to imply that one has more subject knowledge and capability than is actually there. You are an engineer so that is not the case here, but many who have no technical background whatsoever use the title to legitimize their job.

Some engineering may be necessary for customer applications, but that's different than "sales". I agree with you that a good sense of humor and personality go a long way in this venture.

Good luck.

 

[MintJulep]

There is forum784.

Possibly not exactly what you were looking for, but sales is a part of running an engineering business.

 

[bk19702]

I agree with Ron, the engineering term is usually slapped on the end of a salesmen's title to make them sound more legitimate. Personally I would reject that whole sales engineering title; you are going to find more often than not most customers will automatically have their BS radar on when you say "I'm your sales engineer", even if everthing you say is true and technically sound. Not to say you can't still be an engineer and be in sales, but the title really pigeon holes you in most people's eyes. You'll almost have to work twice as hard to legitimize yourself when you add 'sales' to your title. I'm guilty of it too sometimes, but I've also known some real winners who were little more than bad impressions of used car salesmen who happened to tack on the title engineer after their name to sound professional.

...sorry, too much coffee this morning. Rant over. Seriously, good luck and try as much as you can to stress and show your technical merits as an engineer first and foremost, then say "oh, by the way you can buy this from me" after the fact!

 

[jmw]

Assuming there are many sales engineers on this forum...

there may be .... some, but I'm sure they don't advertise it.

Is sales engineering not seen as a branch of engineering and hence does not exsist as a branch on this forum

You have it in a nutshell. It is not. Sales is sales.

SomptingGuy has obviously had his coffee this morning and is feeling mellow.

He is really asking you if you are an engineer who has fallen on hard times or a salesman who works for a company that has simply labelled its salesmen as sales engineers.

You should recognise that the term "engineer" is jealously guarded as it denotes someone who has spent many years of hard study to achieve a professional status (quite what that is is often debated on this site as it varies from country to country).

Categories to mistrust include:
[ul][li] service engineers[/li]
[li]sales engineers[/li]
[li]engineering students (not to be confused with students in general, but still not fully formed humans and the are not welcomed here, especially those who don't read the rules)[/li]
[li]computer software engineers (Bill Gates is often top of the list of those who are associated with computers, with or without the use of the word engineer, who are often denigrated here)[/li][/ul]

Many many "sales engineers", including those working for "industrial automation companies" are treated as no more than salesmen.

Salesmen belong to a sub species of the human race who sell things for a living.
The sort of things they sell are mostly time shares (holiday ownership) double glazing, conservatories, fitted kitchens, insurance, houses.
Yes, estate agents are salesmen too even though some maintain they belong to the genus that contains advertising agents and of course, lawyers, accountants and managers are yet another and far more inferior sub-species. Not sure where to put HR, probably in the genus that includes politicians.

Companies that manufacture "industrial automation products", for example, like to call their salesmen "sales engineers". Much as they would like to believe (or others to believe) that their salesmen are engineers, there just aren't enough real engineers around ready to go into sales and thus these companies simply employ salesmen and call them "engineers" and then find ways to manage them so they can sell engineered products (products that call for some engineering acumen).
The thing with salesmen is they can be taught "monkey see monkey do" methods of selling. How to sell from a catalogue (just show the pages) and they all have a routine, start with a chat gap, pretend to love the same football team as your client...etc etc.

Undoubtedly, there are some members here who are or have been salesmen in one form or another but they usually don't admit to it. Most often, if there is a "selling" question, they would probably say "I have this friend, well, an acquaintance really, or actually, he is an acquaintance of a friend of a friend of mine, and he was telling me about this problem he has...." except most often there isn't a selling question. Such questions are well described/camouflaged as "engineering questions".

So, what SomptingGuy would like to know is if we are to be dealing with a real engineer who has for some reason taken to selling, or a salesman who is a pretend engineer.

Now I'd say from your profile that you could pass as engineer turned salesman.
It happens.

I'm struggling to find a course because I don't understand the so called skills I need apart from the obvious "knowing our product range very well".

So the first thing to recognise is that on this starship, engineers are all Vulcans i.e. logical and rational (and sane, presumably) while everyone else is human i.e. emotional, irrational (and insane) and that is important. (a weakness of Startrek is that "Scotty", the Chief Engineer, is human and very emotional).

Engineers make decisions based on logic, even when they a doing the family shopping at the supermarket.
Every one else, including buyers (possibly including engineering buyers who may or may not be engineers who suffered a similar misfortune and drifted out of real engineering) make emotional decisions.

You could do not worse than prepare by reading "Six things I know about engineers" here:

http://www.marketingtoday.com/marketing/toengine.htm

So if you are looking for a sales training course, you'd better pick out a couple. Most teach you about the management of your life as a salesman. How to divide up your territory, how to organise you travel plans. The Alfred Tack course is/was typical and features their trademark "I, We & You" Triangle (they even give you a button to wear...yuk.) which is to remind you of the priority of importance in your clients life. They'll tell you you must always talk in terms of what is important to the client and not what is important to you.

Actually, this is what most sales courses will teach you: how to manipulate emotional beings to buy what you are selling whether they really need it or not.

What you need is a sales training course that specialises in "sales engineers". You need this either as our main course or as an additional course.


Thinking about it, you are right that it is interesting that there is no "sales Engineer" forum. There is a language forum and I think engineers could justify a sales engineer forum since they are forever having their work interrupted by cold calling salesmen and have, on occassions, no recourse but to deal with salesmen.






JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[jmw]

Oops! while writing (just after SomptingGuy's first)a deluge of replies poured in - a raw nerve touched?.
I came back because I forgot to soften my reply with a smiley.
here it is:



JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[msquared48]

I don't know about you guys, but I've seen used car salesmen engineer a lot of sales... They can really manipulate those numbers.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[TenPenny]

Some engineers like to think of themselves as somehow 'above the fray' of sales, but when you think about it, every consulting engineer is selling something....his/her self. If the consultant does a poor job of presenting the product, they'll not be hired back.

Especially in the US, the use of the term 'engineer' is a muddy mess, where just about any idiot can call themselves an engineer. In Canada, where I live, you risk getting yourself in major legal trouble if you call yourself a sales engineer, if you aren't a PEng. Furthermore, if you're dealing with engineers as clients, and you try to call yourself one and clearly aren't, your credibility goes to zero.

If you are a good sales engineer, you'll bring your technical skills and ability into the mix of sales ability. Sometimes, in fact, you may find you talk your client out of buying, if the solution points that way.

If you're looking to develop and hone your selling skills, there are some good people who do those sorts of things. Look for good 'technical sales' type courses, they'll be of use. Depending on your relationship with your company's suppliers, their people may have some good suggestions, as well.

In the end, you have to remember: there is nothing wrong with earning a living in an ethical way, using your training and skills.

 

[CorBlimeyLimey]

HydroScope,

You could ask site management to create a forum via

http://eng-tips.com/pops/contact.cfm

-or-

Start your own forum via

http://www.eng-tips.com/groups.cfm

 

[TheTick]

If you feel strongly enough (= strongly enough to pay), you can start your own group here.

 

[jmw]

Sometimes, in fact, you may find you talk your client out of buying, if the solution points that way.

Absolutely and so you should ... as an engineer... when in front of the client you work for him.
In the long run, honesty will pay off better than dishonesty and unlike double glazing, conservatory or encyclopaedia sales, you need to be let in the front door more than once.

I think some kind of "sales and engineers" forum might be a good idea, so long as it doesn't lend credence to the idea that a "sales engineer" is an engineer (even though some salesmen may be or may have been engineers.)

The real problem with sales engineers is that the companies they work for often don't give them a chance to be engineers. They have too many products in their brief case and too many markets and applications to sell to for them to develop any particular skills for any one product or market.

If you are an engineer turned salesman, the best thing to do is specialise and get really familiar with one group of products or one market or application. This can be a good way to get promoted into product specialist and get back some links to engineering - the best excuse for an engineer to be selling selling is to gain front line experience that will let you help develop newer and better products along with some ideas about sales and marketing.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[ykee]

I dislike the term sales engineer, but do not mind the term applications engineer. At least with the term "applications" there are some connotations that you are looking to do some engineering work for your clients and providing them with a solution, rather than just bits and pieces of stuff.

 

[SomptingGuy]

"Business development manager" is the name our sales people use.

- Steve

 

[jmw]

I've known a few "business development managers" ... they were not engineers, they were no good at sales, no good at business and useless at developing anything, the contrary in fact, and couldn't manage a piss-up in a brewery.

I did know one good one but he didn't last long.

A lot of these titles are just the usual management speak terms made up to dissociate perception from experience. A poor salesman/manager by any other name.....

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[KENAT]

I agree with ykee, if you really are an engineer, helping the customer to find a solution then a term like applications engineer is more appealing to most of us non sales guys.

What is it your boss wants you to learn, how to sell stuff? Many of our vendors split the duties. They have the sales guy (or actually more often girl, attractive girl at that, can't think why) and they have a technical person at their beck & call to answer the real questions while they wine, dine, flirt and do all the soft stuff.

Funny Sompting, that was very much like the title of a guy at my last place. He was a reasonable nuts and bolts engineer (apprenticeship not degree) but a real wheeler & dealer when it came to the sales side. I actually really liked him though, nice guy. The guy doing the same job for another sector of the business was you typical idiot though.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[Mr168]

I interviewed a few years back for a "Sales Engineer" position with Lincoln Electric. About the only engineering I would have done would have been analyzing which golf clubs I wanted to use on which holes.