Will Discipline Help? 7

[mrmrec]

I'm a manufacturing engin. for a small oil field tools manufacturer. The atmosphere here is VERY relaxed. No records are being kept on anyone’s tardiness or absences. Can anyone share their experience on a similar shop, and if this is a good way to run a plant. The system is not set-up to discipline workers, rather no one is in charge of it. Our company has a very good reputation for quality. Also my boss seems to have an aversion to discipline, but has not convinced me of it.

E.C.

 

[mrmrec]

It is the owners job to manage but he funnels his critique through the shop foreman. People can pretty much decide for themselves if they come in early or late. Foreman ask can you stay late, and accepts what ever answer they give him. Most workers will only work 40 no more no less. To the point that the customer calls and asks to speak to the owner directly. Now the owners running around the shop yelling at the forman trying to get this part thats 2wks late done in three day. My question is how can i get a better response from workers without writeups or suspensions. How can we communicate that we need them to not miss and to come in on time and to not to take 15 minute breaks when they go to the restroom.

FYI for 2005 and 523 jobs shipped
On time delivery: 53%
Employee attendance 40hrs M-F: 86% w/4 emp. below 80%
Injuries: 2
NCR: 82

Let me just say that I appreciate everyones input. At the time I posted I hadn't made up my mind. I wasn't pro or against any of the two believes. But the truths is that there is ALOT of opportunity to improve, and I was basically asking if discipline would help. I'm seeing that there is may be a better way, but don't know that way, yet.

 

[MikeHalloran]

At 500+ jobs/year, I'll bet you're not really scheduling parts scientifically, but just pulling promises out of the sky.

You could get your on-time deliveries rate up by adding a week to what you promise, OR by measuring your actual delivery time and adjusting your promises accordingly, OR by adjusting a salesman's commission to zero when a delivery is late.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[Ashereng]

How about being nice to them, instead of writing them up and suspending them? You do that enough times and you won't have any personnel problems - you won't have any personnel.

Let see, they work 40 hours a week. What was in their employment contract? Probably 40 hours a week. If you are going to ask them to help you out (bad scheduling, bad promisis by the sales guy, stuff happens and you are late), wouldn't it be better to be nice to them so they want to help? Instead of harping on 15 breaks, writing them up and suspending them.

By the way, what are you doing personally to help get that part that is 2 weeks late out the door in 3 days? Are you coming in and woking 16 hours a day?

If you are not, what kind of example are you setting.
If you are, great, you are setting a good example. Anyone else following you?

 

[bill1898]

mrmrec,
Getting back to your original question. I have never worked in a shop with the atmosphere as relaxed you describe it, but I have worked for a company that ran a very tight ship and also one that had a somewhat relaxed atmosphere.
The highly organized and disciplined company was in a very competitive industry that required that all costs be kept to an absolute minimum. It was a very difficult atmosphere for most of the employees. This company was very profitable and competitive for many years until other companies took a different approach to achieving the same objectives for the customers and over time the company due to its inability to adapt to the new reality went out of business.
The somewhat relaxed company had products based upon an entirely new design of an ancient product and grew and prospered for many years. Eventually, other companies started making similar products and over time created a very competitive atmosphere. This company still exists, but is now a much smaller operation than it once was. It could not find the disciplines necessary to stay competitive.
My thoughts on your situation lead me to think that either your company has a unique product, or the product quality level is so high that customers keep returning although the promised deliveries are not too great. Based upon my experience, I hope everyone who are enjoying this situation understand that it will not last forever. Assuming that there is a reasonable profit to be made, some day, someone will come along and either buy your company out, or compete and put it out of business.
You personally seem to be in a situation where you cannot abide what you are seeing and yet are helpless to change it. In my opinion you really need to consider moving to another company that has an atmosphere that is more compatible with your notions of how a company should be run. It looks as if you will not be able to change anything there.
Hope this helps.

 

[FACS]

mrmrec,

Yes then, discipline will help, but it is the management that has to disciplie itself...to manage effectively, set schedules, communicate the goals, create the group dynamics and get the job done.

Sloppy management. 52% is very poor

Charlie

http://www.facsco.com

 

[rorschach]

Consider using a carrot instead of a stick to achieve your ends. Like maybe buying the whole crew lunch when a product ships on time. Or give bonuses to the guys willing to work late. You'd be suprised at the level of loyalty you can achieve with a catered barbeque lunch once in a while.

 

[JoeMoss]

I agree with rorschach, rather than discipline, have an incentive program. A place I interviewed with a few weeks ago had a program where if you had no tardies or left early for the quarter, you got a half day of vacation (take the time or cash it in). If you went the full year, I think there was a additional bonus.

A lot of people are saying that the shop is good, don't mess with it. But until you are 100% on time delivery, you are not good. Sorry. But that too is a reflection of quality

My thoughts,
Joe

 

[maxbreizh]

mrmrec,

My advice would be to establish KPI (Key Performance Indicators) that would demonstrate that all of the items that you mentioned as non-discipline related do actually affect quality and productivity.

OTD (on time delivery) mentioned by JoeMoss is one KPI. Quality first time right is another one (saying quality is good does not mean much until you have measured it benchmarked to your competitors). There are plenty of other KPI that you can find - Use the seven form of "muda" created by the Kaizen method (search internet).
Then establish the absolute performance (100% right first time, zero work accident, etc...). Then root cause the gap -

Once you have nicely packaged all that, then you will have a lot of good stuff to show your boss as of how much money is wasted and what exactly does it mean that the current way of doing is the right way ;-/

Good luck!
Max.

PS: You can be in a relaxed environment and world class at the same time. Being 6 sigma does not mean that everybody is stressed out! On the contrary...

 

[maxbreizh]

mrmrec,

I just noticed your message about OTD... 53%.
What are the 47% missing due to?

100% is you absolute result -
There are 47% missing...? Use the 80/20 rule and start root cause the big chunk creating the delays. (by the way, this means 47% of customers potentially unhappy with your service!??) -

Run workshop with the people showing the results of your findings, and brainstorm with them what we can do to improve -
Proceed the same way with the other KPI's

Leave discipline aside for now - it is not a critical issue it seems at this point -

Max.

 

[DDRSS10]

I have worked in a shop that ran a lot like you described. It was at times frustrating to see other people slacking when I was busting hump. But when it came right down to it the boss saw who was working harder, and made it right with that person. I see some of the comments about having 100% otd that is not possible in a great many shops, especially ones who do a lot of repair and specialty work. The deadlines are often yesterday. If the crew is used to working in one environment and that is changed without a reason that is immedatly nad visibly benificial to them the implementor of these changes is sure to see a lot resitance, or a lot of people leaving. It seems that there is room for improvement without cracking the wip.

Nick

"Speed costs money boys, how fast do you want to go?"

 

[maxbreizh]

Nick,

You will not make me believe that the 47% delays are all due to the customer.... that is why I recommended root cause analysis -)

Max.

 

[maxbreizh]

...and I agree that it happens a lot that the customer wanted it yesterday... it happens all the time where I work... and customer's king as we say !

It's in my company less than 10% - which probably matches the industry average from what I have seem in forums and discussion with other folks also in the oil business -

Max.
\

 

[mrmrec]

Well put max. I hate to sound so negative, and only focus on the bad, but the numbers that I've posted were somewhat difficult to obtain. No one knew or cared about them at my company. I showed it to my boss and he was mildly impressed if not cynical. He didn't see the value in the reports i gave, but one week later we were due for an API audit in January. The auditor recommended suspending our license! Which we've carried for 10-15 years! Most of his findings were on the tracking of KPIs and meetings regarding KPIs (he referred to as key required inputs). Since no one is tracking or monitoring any KPIs, how could we have meetings over them? Again, I started to track and report some KPI's but my boss saw no value in it. I thought after the audit he would come to me and ask me to continue monitoring the KPI's or maybe introduce new one. If anything just to satisfy the auditor’s findings. But he surprised me by saying that the findings were BULL S***, and API is going soft joining with ISO. He stated, "Reports and data analyzing doesn't affect the product we make. None of our product will ever fail in the field."

Keep in mind that I'm new to this company, and this industry, and to the workforce in general. I still developing my own ideas about how an I.E. or engineer involved in mfg. should act and do. So being young I tend to be easily influenced by this man's opinions. Of course I take everything with a grain of salt. And that's why I came to this website seeking advice. I'll try to once more monitor KPIs and hopefully I'll find one that strikes a chord w/my boss.

I want to believe that I have a TREMENDOUS opportunity here. To be the only person at this company concerned with the numerical performance of the company yesterday, today and tomorrow. But this guy's making feel like if I'm not designing on AutoCAD, or purchasing material, or running a machine, I'm of no use to him.

Jeez the longer this thread gets the more details I'm giving of my situation. And believe me there is still more

 

[Ashereng]

Jeez the longer this thread gets the more details I'm giving of my situation. And believe me there is still more

Until you give all the details, it will be tough for people to respond intelligently.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[tripleZ]

Hmm, sounds like a place I used to work/manage. I've had some of the same problems. From my experience, some you'll be able to fix outright, some you'll have to sneak in without the hourly guys being fully aware of what you're doing, and some you can't fix.

1) Quality - You can ship quality parts; it just depends on who has the final say in what goes out the door. If it's a job shop (which it sounds like), your shop foreman and/or final QA guy will retain pretty good control of this. In a way, you're "inspecting quality into" the parts when you do this. It's not financially optimal, but it can work (at least it did for me). Changing the culture of the guys on the floor will be slow and gradual. You start by asking them to record certain sizes, then slowly add in more, etc. If the foreman spot checks, or you spot check, and correct them when it's wrong, you'll usually find them starting to check their own work a little more closely. Note that this can take a long time; and if you're the new guy, you will face a LOT of opposition when trying to implement something like this. That's why you do it in a gradual, subtle manner.

2) License stuff - If you're a job shop, realize that ISO standards for statistics collection (which auditors love) may not be a great measure of what your performance actually is. It's all in how you define the metrics. My shop measured things like OTD accurately; scrap percentages were a different ballgame. When you are a one-of-a-kind facility, that metric can be misleading. That might be the BS your boss is talking about. For those misleading metrics which don't help you effectively run your company, you set up the process to specifically look good to an auditor. Your auditor is happy, and it's painless data collection on your part.

3) OTD - this is your foreman's job, or the boss who schedules the work. Tread lightly here. There are ways to make it better, but if you're not asked, be very careful how you offer suggestions.

4) Changes - you state that you're new to the company, industry, and workforce. I was there a few years back. My advice to you is this: Crusty old toolmakers/machinists have specific ideas about how things are done. They do not like being told by kids fresh out of school with booksmarts and no on-the-job experience what to do. You can only change the situation, and subsequently their attitudes, over time. Small changes which yield small successes will work better than trying to overhaul the system. You have to prove to them that it works before they'll accept it...at least that's the way my shop was.

5) KPIs and monitoring - Hint here: if you're going to monitor them and present the results, throw in a few suggestions on how to change poor performing categories. If the market is tight competitively, and your company is losing money or market share, your boss is probably aware of it. Simply giving him more bad news may tend to exacerbate the situation. If you're going to bring up the bad, then spend a little more time thinking about the process and try to offer some good suggestions which may help.

- Z

 

[DDRSS10]

Max,

I was in no way implying that 47% was entirely the fault of the customer, or acceptable. We were at about 17%, but all be told it ment alot of long nights for the guys who were up to the challenge.

Nick

"Speed costs money boys, how fast do you want to go?"

 

[ornerynorsk]

No attendance records!!! Are you hiring ???

 

[drozic]

Attend the 8:30 staff, disappear, and return for the 4:00 wrap-up??

 

[brookside]

Wow does the word anarchy ring a bell here? I am the General Manager of a tight ship yet I allow people to be their own boss. First of all I have told my workers that every one of them is a business within a business. They require a competent input just like I do; that's my job to provide that. They produce an output that is validated by them to be correct and I buy it from them in the form of a paycheque. If I don't like their output then I might shop somewhere else for a business that fulfills my requirements and expectations ( they generally get the message). I use a four stage discipline package. First I tell them where they are going wrong with their attitude or behaviour (because I care). If it happens again I will issue them their first part of the pack, a written verbal warning. Second infraction they get a written warning that explains their behaviour has not been corrected from the vebal warning. The third infraction they get to go home without pay for a 3 day suspension. The last and fourth page is their termination. They are in the dirver's seat and they can't go to the labour board as being mistreated. Belive me once that pack is started you can let it do the work for you. All you need to be is consitent don't argue and never back up.

 

[edspearman]

You must understand the politics of the ownership; and there objectives.

Don't worry about it; just do as you are asked, get your pay check and go home to your life.

or

Quit