Will Kyoto cause the US problems? 29

[QCE]

Please read the following article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4254877.stm

Any comments?

Will the Kyoto accord coming into effect cause the US to change its position on emissions?

I realize that many people don't believe that the US is a major polluter and that the 3rd world is doing all the polluting. Please refrain from dragging that arguement into this thread. The main issue is that other countries are going to be buy/selling/devloping new technologies to reduce emissions. Will the US be majorly involved?

 

[BobPE]

hahaha We don't blame the French, we just boycott France....Bill O'Reilly is a far better reporter than old Danny boy.....And I thank the Frenceh every day for letting us in the US have Elf-Autochem's oil contracts....screw up...hmmmm I always wondered about French foreign policy....Anyway, it is cleaner to burn the oil here in the US anyway....

Bob

 

[SacreBleu]

Clean burning Hummer engines? Is that like compassionate serial killers? What nonsense!
If you have a 400+ ci engine spewing out double the exhaust volume than a normal engine, you are spewing out twice the pollution, irregardless. The emissions law are written only for ppb per given volume, not for crud/per hour. As usual, the USA gov't is confused about the real issues. They are on a tight leash being yanked by Big Corporation.

 

[BobPE]

Hummer engines are very clean burning!!!! I guess I just don't get it.....The tight leash here is called the US Citizen....the Big Corporation yanking us is called Freedom.....wouldn't have it any other way...but we are off track here....Our emission standards are on a volume basis, and our engines will burn a unit of fuel cleaner on a volume basis that a Chinese engine...I will have to look at what the French do, I admit, I am not up to speed on their emissions laws....

So I should want less fuel burned here in our clean Hummer engines and more fuel burned in dirtier Chinese engines? Tha is Kyoto at a consumer level.....What nonsense, you are right!!!!

Bob

 

[ewh]

Our fuel supply is costing us more every day. Trucks in the US are not subject to the same CAFE regulations as cars, thus better mileage is not a requirement. To help sell more of these guzzlers, there is a big tax break on them. Govt logic, go figure.

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> Govt logic, go figure.

The government, or more to the point, the people in government, are acting quite logically towards their objectives. The illogic comes is assuming that their objective is based on your desires.

==> As usual, the USA gov't is confused about the real issues. They are on a tight leash being yanked by Big Corporation.

The USA government is not alone by any means, and the real issue is economics. Every government seeks its own best interests, and economics is always at, or very near, the top of the list.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[QCE]

Burning fuel in the USA may be cleaner but the USA burns much more then China. The fact is that the USA emits more then China.

The USA has been trying to reduce emmissions by increasing the efficiency of emmission reducing equipment. This is a good step. However they have kept increasing the amount of fuel burned. The total emmissions in the USA are still going up. Therefore it is not an ideal system.

The best way would be to reduce consumption and improve efficiency of filters, scrubbers, esp's, etc.

I think the best way for the consumption to go down is for the price of gas to keep increasing. In Canada we pay $3.20US/1USgal. What is the price in the US? I would guess around $2.

 

[SacreBleu]

The cars in China are using the Euro 1 emissions standard, according to that program on PBS. The big worry is that as China is becoming rapidly more affluent, they are transforming from a "ride your cheap black bike to work society" to a car culture.

 

[SacreBleu]

Cajun,
Nothing wrong with economics driving Government policy - the problem in the USA is a few very powerful corporations driving it to destruction for their short-sighted, greedy objectives a la Enron / Caspian Basin oil exploitation disaster.

 

[zdas04]

Government policy is whatever it takes to keep the current set of crooks in office. Fuel prices (in constant dollars) are substantially less than 1983 prices. In fact they are closer to 1970 prices. Cheep fuel begets waste. Cheep fuel has led to the elimination of over 1 million Oil & Gas jobs since 1986. Cheep fuel has caused the sustained production-replacement programs to fall way behind demand growth.

When Kerry (in the only point he and I ever agreed upon) said that he would put a $2/gallon tax on gasoline to pay for his silly programs he was shouted off the stage and never mentioned it again. That would do more to reduce emissions than a hundred Koyoto's, but it would never get out of Congress.

David

 

[BobPE]

QCE:

As long as the world economy is based of oil, the price rising will only induce economic hardship on those that are at the lower end of society and can not afford the cost...should we balance emmissions on their back while the rich continue to use oil...I don't think that is the answer as long as there is oil to be had. We are about 2.15 us dollars average where I am at...

I would still rather see the an equivelent volume of oil burned in the US using clean technology than somewhere else, like China and their paper tiger Euro1 emissions program or south and central america where even a paper tiger emission program would be better than what they have.

Bob

 

[QCE]

Even if the USA has 50% less emission from burned fuel they continue to burn more then 200% more of it then other countries making it not sound as sweet as you may think.

If gas went to $4/gal I think people would start selling their Ford 350's.

 

[SacreBleu]

BobPE,
The reality is that China is gobbling up huge amounts of oil from Venezuela, Iran and eventually the Caspian Basin area. The USA can't do anything to stop that, especially with their outlandishly incompetent foreign policy has gotten most of the world angry.

 

[BobPE]

SacreBleu:

I agree that China is a black hole consuming every resource in sight, including oil, with little or no oversight by the world community, let alone the US. And I have to agree that China's foreign policy is a joke...and is getting to the point where us professionals are the first to see the problem on the horizon.....but Kyoto supports China's behavior....


QCE...So, I sell the F250, and save 100 bbls of oil a year. That oil goes to China and gets burned there....the environment would have been better off with me keeping that F250 since once China burns that oil and create those increased emmissions, I can't get them back.

Lets say I got a bike and burned no oil. China burned what I saved...where are we going???? My point is to put all the oil through the cleanest equipment possible...I dont care how much that clean equipment uses because for everything it does not use dirty equipment will.

Bob

 

[corus]

Somehow I don't think americans burning oil means China burns less oil or vice versa. This is becoming laughable.

corus

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> The total emmissions in the USA are still going up.
Whereas that may be true, the total emissions per capita is the USA is going down. The rate of population increase in greater than the per capita emission rate decrease. I would also point out that whereas the USA is still the world's largest emitter in real tonnage, the USA is no longer the largest per capita emitter, and its share has been cut almost in half to about 25% of the world's total emissions. Yes, there is more that can be done, and should be done, but the USA is not behaving nearly as irresponsibility as many would like to believe.

==> the problem in the USA is a few very powerful corporations driving it to destruction for their short-sighted, greedy objectives a la Enron / Caspian Basin oil exploitation disaster.
True, but what industrialized nation is not at the mercy of large corporations? That problem is not unique to the USA. It is a problem for all nations, especially industrialized nations, where the GDP is so affected. The problem will also get much worse as countries, such as China and India, become more and more industrialized, therefore, increasing their economic dependance on large corporations.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[QCE]

Thank you Corus

I think most people will agree that reducing consumption of oil/ energy is good regardless of the country!

Apparently not burning the oil at all is not an option. Apparently China using the same equipment as the USA is not an option.
Apparently all those Asian cars in the USA are smog machines.
Apparently the world cooperating on emission reduction is not an option.

Thanks for being so open minded.

 

[BobPE]

QCE:

Most people would agee with you QCE, reduction in oil usage does not make the oil go away however. This is not the first time someone missed my point...thats ok though...

I think Asin cars that are imported into the US meet current EPA emission standards quite well...Even though they may be smog machines in Asia as you claim we have pretty stringent standards here.

Why would China use the same equipment as us, why in the world would they possibly want to do that to make us feel better? Certainly not for econoimic reasons, they are not going to spend a government dime on something that willmake them no money nor will they require industry to do anything and jepordize their production???? Possibly to open up control of the country to their own people and make life better for their people...yes....that must be the reason, and China would be all for that...I am thinking they could give a rats ass about the environment,,,,

And I dont think we have come up with a way to cooperate in the world on emissions...Kyoto pretty much proved that for the time being....

Bob

 

[zdas04]

QCE,
Why does this discussion have to get acromonius? No one said that Asian vehicles imported into the U.S. are smog machines. Quite the contrary, as a group they have better emisisons numbers than U.S. made vehicles (because as a fleet they have lower hp). A Toyota in Bejjing will not have the same emissions control equipment as one in California because there are no regulations to cause the consumer to bear the excessive extra costs of that equipment. I understand that the government of China really wants to clean up their air, but the hurddle of getting hundreds of millions of people into the 20th century (to say nothing of the 21st) is slowing the progress on that front.

Cooperation from the world will always end up with the substitution of politics for science. It ain't helping.

The article that I mentioned yesterday evening is at

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4520831.stm

it is a pretty even-handed report by the BBC which suggests that global dimming has stopped over Europe and North America and gotten worse over China and India.

David

 

[SacreBleu]

Not only Japanese cars have lower emissions numbers than US vehicles because they have smaller engines overall as a fleet, they have very advanced designs which allow much better mileage and cleaner emissions.
As I said in a separate thread, the US manufacturers should try to incorporate their innovations, instead of trying to save their arses by pushing big trucks on the US public. American cars are generally of such poor quality, I suspect that is why many Americans buy a big truck rather than an American car.

 

[QCE]

I heard on the news that China is a big scary monsters that just pollutes away and doesn't have any regulations. Therefore why should we change. Even though we are the largest polluter in the world.

This is basically the arguement that I am hearing from some. It is pretty hard to reply to this type of logic.

Step up and be a world leader.

Actually China adopted the Euro 1 emission standard in January 1999, engine management systems and catalytic converters have become a must for domestic cars to meet emissions standards.