Wind Loading 3

[sniper98]

I was looking through the OBC, and realized that values for q, Cp and Cg were not given. After getting the NBCC, I found the q value, but the Cp and Cg values were still missing. I realized now the values I need are in the NBCC Part 4 Structural Commentaries. Does anyone have the wind section that they can share as an attachment; or knows a link to where it can be downloaded?

 

[Ron]

First of all, welcome to the forums.

Next, a few comments on your posting:

1. This is an international forum, so please be clear when you use acronyms. I will assume OBC means Ontario Building Code and NBCC means National Building Code of Canada. This will allow others to help you with a more pointed and appropriate reply. I am not familiar with either, so it would not be appropriate for me to offer a technical response.

2. Cross posting is against the rules of the forums. You have posted the same query in 3 different forums. Please select the appropriate forum and post your question or comment there. This forum is the appropriate one for your question. I have red-flagged the other two.

3. The documents you requested are protected by copyright and cannot be posted in the forums. You will have to purchase them or make a trip to a local library for reference.

Good luck.

 

[sniper98]

Yes, I mean Ontario Building Code and National Building Code of Canada. Unfortunately, the wind loading information is spread over many different codes, and I do not have the NBCC Part 4 Structural Commentaries. In many countries it is not illegal to download information, but I can understand if it's restricted in this forum. Hopefully, someone can scan and post at a file sharing site; I think it will be beneficial for many people who encountered the same problem as I have.

 

[Ron]

sniper98....I don't mean to get on your case here, but most of us have to buy the standards and codes we need for our work. I realize that on occasion you only need something once, but for such an issue, I would hope that this is a normal part of your business and if so, then you need to acquire the appropriate codes and standards. If it is not a normal part of your business, you probably shouldn't be doing it.

Assuming you are in Canada, it is one country that respects copyrights. Yes, some countries allow downloading copyrighted documents...my personal opinion is that this is wrong. A lot of effort goes into the preparation of such documents. That effort costs money and provides jobs for some people. To circumvent the payment for such documents puts all of that at jeopardy.

Preaching done.

 

[SkiisAndBikes]

sniper,

It's $94 and downloadable immediately at the nrc site. In your jurisdiction, as well as most others, using or possessing copyright material or pirated software in a professional office can result in your license being suspended. You are really dead in the water generating NBCC/OBC wind loads without the standard.

 

[sniper98]

I appreciate your comments.

Just because someone needs something once, doesn't mean they shouldn't be doing it. Remember, we all need to start at square one before we got to where we are now. As far as I know, Canada is a country that allows downloading from the internet, as do many other countries. In my opinion, if someone wants to support the preparation of documents and the entrepreneurial spirit, they should make a donation, or speak to the appropriate authorities to make the changes to the laws that they want. At the end of the day, preaching to me will not change the laws, and gets little done for your cause. But in my view, I support the laws, because I think free access has allowed people to resources they never had before, and made people more knowledgeable, which is a positive benefit. But I will try my local library as you mentioned; but still hope someone can come forward to help me and others out with this particular "missing" resource.

 

[sniper98]

SkiisAndBikes, I agree with you, a business should not have copyright material or pirated software, as this can be illegal. However, dl privately is not illegal in many countries.

 

[BAretired]

I have a copy of the User's Guide - NBC 2005. I don't use it any more because I am retired. Commentary I "Wind Load and Effects" is 48 pages long. Do you really expect someone to scan 48 pages for your benefit? Buy the document and stop wasting everyone's time.

BA

 

[Ron]

sniper98...if you are using the document for work activity, whether for a "business" or individually, it is still a business.

If I recall correctly, to become a P.Eng. you need to have graduated from an accredited university and write an ethics exam upon gaining appropriate experience. Did that not sink in?

Good luck.

 

[sniper98]

Ron...to clarify: it's a business if you sell downloaded copyright material that you don't own the copyright too; which is illegal. But it's not considered a business to download and use information that you download.

It doesn't matter what your profession is, everyone needs to follow ethics in their profession, regardless if you are an engineer or not. If you have an ethical issue with the laws, you should have your voice heard with government. You are pointing fingers at the wrong people, and passing judgement about internet laws; but I can understand everyone has their own opinion. In my opinion, the internet has created a wealth of information, which is unfortunate that you don't want to take advantage of, and I think you are being left behind. The biggest consumers of these products are businesses, which is why downloading privately has never been a concern for the governments.

BAretired..I respect that you don't want to waste your time scanning information, but my query is for people who have the resource.

This thread has now changed to a discussion about the ethics of the legality of downloading information from the internet. Unfornutately, I don't see an appropriate place on this forum for this discussion, or I would create a new thread. Again, if someone knows of a link to my original query, then please do share.

 

[BAretired]

How about "Professional Ethics in Engineering Forum"?

BA

 

[Ron]

sniper98...you misunderstood my point about a "business". My point was that if you, as an engineer, download some copyrighted material for the purpose of furthering YOUR business, whether as an individual or some other business entity, then you are using that copyrighted material in the context of your business. That's different than for personal use. Besides, copyright laws do not differentiate the purpose of use...just the use. So any violation of the copyright is wrong and a disservice to the owner of the copyright.

I'm a published author. If my material is pirated, it reduces my income from that material. How would you feel if your income were reduced because someone took something from you illegally?

 

[concretemasonry]

In the big picture, the model or national codes cab be over-ridden by local authorities, especially for snow and wind. That means doing some leg-work and understanding and not just cheating off the computer.

Dick

Engineer and international traveler interested in construction techniques, problems and proper design.

 

[sniper98]

BAretired....This discussion is not about engineering ethics in my opinion, but about copyright material that is distributed over the internet, and whether it should be illegal, and whether someone downloading material is doing something wrong. Personally, this is not a topic of discussion I wanted to talk about. If you like to start a new thread on this topic, then please do so.

Ron...It's legal to download copyright material in some countries, so I don't understand why you consider it an infrigement at the same time. At this stage, you only hold a view or opinion that it's wrong. As a publisher, you decide if you want your material to be in electronic format. You clearly understand the risk of it being distributed over the internet when it's in this format; (and you also understand that material will be distributed over the internet, because everyone has access to the internet nowadays). From a business point of view, you make the decision to make it available in this format because you know that you make more money from businesses inspite of it's availability. Also, you make money through lawsuits of businesses and schools that clearly infriged the copyright laws for using this material for business/teaching purposes (this needs to be distinguished from private use). If someone downloads something legally, and uses it without distribution or re-sell, then it's classified as personal use, whether or not it has translated it's effect in their work or career.

Concretemasonry...thanks for your comments, as this is the only response I got related to my post. The provincial code does not have any guidance related to q and CpCg values, which means someone must get both the National Code (for q values), plus the User Guide (for CpCg values), just to calculate wind loads (I think I'm not the only person who encountered this problem). I'm missing the third installment (the User Guide), and hoping someone can share.

 

[Ron]

sniper98...it's unfortunate that you just don't get it. There is clearly an ethical connection and as an engineer you should know and respect that. Too bad.

 

[woodman88]

In the USA you can not copyright the law. Because of this more building departments/states allow access to their building code (2006 IBC/IRC, 2009 IBC/IRC, the 2010 CBC, etc. with their amendments) online and some of them can be downloaded onto your computer. What the law is in other countries I do not know. See attached links

http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/Phoenix2006/Phoenix_IBC/building_frameset.htm

Phoenix AZ

http://publicecodes.citation.com/st/ca/st/b200v10/index.htm

California 2010

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

 

[BAretired]

First you say:

This thread has now changed to a discussion about the ethics of the legality of downloading information from the internet. Unfornutately, I don't see an appropriate place on this forum for this discussion, or I would create a new thread.

I was merely responding to your "appropriate place on this forum" question.

Then you say:

BAretired....This discussion is not about engineering ethics in my opinion, but about copyright material that is distributed over the internet, and whether it should be illegal, and whether someone downloading material is doing something wrong. Personally, this is not a topic of discussion I wanted to talk about. If you like to start a new thread on this topic, then please do so.

I have no intention of starting a new thread on this topic as the answer seems clear.

In Alberta, the q value comes from the Alberta Building Code. I would imagine it is the same in Ontario, but I don't really know because I don't reside in that province.

The CpCg values come from the User Guide which you can order on-line at

http://www.nrc.gc.ca/virtualstore

or you can Telephone 1-800-672-7990 or 1-613-993-2483.

BA

 

[BAretired]

Sorry, that last telephone number should read 1-613-993-2463.

BA

 

[sniper98]

Ron & BAretired....you guys have created an ethical connection upon yourselves, and I think it's at your own loss. But we can agree to disagree? I think the best resolution is for you guys to respect your own views, while letting others respect theirs.

BAretired...the same is not for the OBC. They don't have q or CpCg values in there. The q is in the National Building Code. CpCg is in the User Guide. For someone to calculate wind loading for Ontario, they must have all three books. Nice profit making idea, but I guess that's life.

woodman88....those are great links. Is the net pressure coefficient values in the International Code exactly the same as the Canadian CpCg values?

But still hoping for the User Guide, if someone has a free public link (filesharing link) for that.

 

[SkiisAndBikes]

sniper,

You are incorrect, the q values are contained in the Ontario Building Code, in the compendium, which is another volume sold separately. Looks like you are going to have to add another publication to your list.