Women Engineers.... 44

[lisa247]

jmw I think the scenario you talked about is just a case of bad professional conduct, its not different in my eyes to a man showing a woman his latest tattoo on his rear end. OK so it might be a nice rear end in some peoples eyes.......

So have we come to any conclusion here then? haha. Perhaps i'd be better off just having lots of children and baking lots of cakes...

 

[jmw]

Conclusion or hope? Just that we don't want to go to the opposite extreme where no one dare note that some of their co-workers are of a different sex nor talk about anything but work.... and we should remember that many people meet their life partners at work, where would we be without that?

Bad professional conduct?
Not so sure about that one. Many of us poor blokes have no way of interpreting the meaning of what women say and do.
It could have meant "I fancy you". Or simply, "look at my bruises." (I never meant anything else by it, whatever gave you the idea that I did? - does it help understand if no bruises were evident?).
Worst of all, it might mean, "I think you're "safe"."
And some of us MMs wouldn't know the difference between a bunny girl and a bunny boiler and in such situations a quick exit is the safest course no matter what the real meaning.

But I understand when you would prefer not to be shown a tattooed butt - yuk!

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[lisa247]

"Conclusion or hope? Just that we don't want to go to the opposite extreme where no one dare note that some of their co-workers are of a different sex nor talk about anything but work.... and we should remember that many people meet their life partners at work, where would we be without that?"

I totally agree with you, of course there are instances where people are attracted to each other.

All women know that pulling up their top is going to get some kind of reaction from men, whether there are bruises there or not. We dont know how far she pulled her top up but if it was enough to make you blush and decide to make a sharp exit then to me that's not a very professional thing to do as she put you in an awkward situation.

 

[lacajun]

I worked with an older consulting engineer early in my career. I leaned back in my chair once and put my hands behind my head as we discussed technical aspects of the project. He immediately said my chest was exciting him and he found it distracting. I am not well endowed by anyone's standards. But, I immediately put my hands in my lap and straightened up in my chair. The technical discussion continued.

You never know what will "get" them. But it's a good policy to work with them and be considerate.

 

[SNORGY]

The women engineers I have worked with have all had the following going for them:

(1) They were smarter than me and just about everyone else.
(2) They showed great poise and character under pressure.
(3) They were not easily intimidated by other authority figures.
(4) They had a presence about them that commanded respect.
(5) They had a certain knack by which men were not quick to enter into heated arguments with them.
(6) They were better looking than me (OK I had to offer one token "OINK" statement).

I don't know, but anyone who treats even an average woman engineer like crap is really only making himself look like an idiot.

Treat them nice enough and they will even make you coffee. (OK...so two token "OINK" statements...)

Seriously...I have come to know women engineers as by and large superior to me in many respects, with both brains and guts to acquit themselves well in a "man's" environment, whether in the office or in the field. We would do well to listen to them when they talk...and to bring *them* the coffee once in a while.

(Triple "OINK".)

Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[clickster]

Throughout my education and my (so-far) 3 yr career, I have already heard several comments towards women engineers that go something like "You can't do XYZ because you're a girl" or "Why the hell do they keep hiring them for, their job is to stay home". They weren't respected in the company I worked for and they were given menial/secretarial work even though they were hired into an engineering position (despite their intellect and talent). There were also a few that were sexually harassed. I don't think it surprises me that they are deciding to opt out of this field.

On the other hand, I have also seen favoritism towards women from professors. I have seen a boss give a "once in a lifetime engineering opportunity" to an inexperienced, unskilled, new-hire female over the highly experienced, qualified co-workers just because he was impressed with her looks. And after she got her "reward" she left the group for management.

I think it goes without saying that not all companies or men are this way but every women should know what they may have to deal with before they choose a field.

Hiring someone or promoting someone should be based on skills, talent, qualifications, etc....nothing else, including gender or looks.

 

[GregLocock]

"And after she got her "reward" she left the group for management."

So it worked? Honestly your note merely reminds me that anecdote!=data, and frankly sounds more like bitching than anecdote.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[clickster]

Let me just add that the boss who chose her regretted doing so since he thought she would stick around longer...He kept sharing his story years after it happened, that's the only way I know about it. This incident didn't affect me in anyway since I wasn't around when it happened. Hence anecdote = data, not anecdote = bitchiness.

 

[lacajun]

clickster, I've watched men do the same thing. You never know what is going on with people so you take risks and hope for the best.

 

[jmw]

Clickster,

I have seen a boss give a "once in a lifetime engineering opportunity" to an inexperienced, unskilled, new-hire female over the highly experienced, qualified co-workers just because he was impressed with her looks. And after she got her "reward" she left the group for management.

Lacajun is right.
Take out female, or even new hire female, and you have a common enough situation where the wrong people get the credit and the promotions.
Brown-nosers are good at this.
In a way, the fact that this was a new hire female is almost a refreshing, understandable and tolerable change.
By that I mean that I can understand a bloke being unduly influenced to hire an attractive female, but I am far less happy when the boss promotes some sycophantic suck-up.

AND: you may suspect she is an innocent who possibly might feel a bit sensitive that she has got the job for the wrong reasons and that she has been done no favours if it she isn't up to the job.
In this case,kudos for getting out as she did.

On the other hand, the brown-noser will be busy as ever stabbing everyone in the back, will have no regrets and doesn't care that the job is beyond him(her) because chances are they were no good at the job they did before. Of course, once they reach management level being a complete waste of space will no longer be a risk factor for them..

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[lacajun]

but every women should know what they may have to deal with before they choose a field.

I heartily agree! I thought I did understand, too. After all, I have family members and friends of the male persuasion. An uncle warned me against getting an engineering degree because men cannot accept intelligent or educated women. I've since learned some men can.

An older engineer, now retired, said very similar words as yours to me as a young engineer. He had let out of string of expletives, which I was personally familiar with, and was summarily chastised by the estimator for his outburst. The engineer explained I should expect that from men in a male dominated field. He further claimed if I hadn't, that I shouldn't have entered engineering. I agreed with him 100%. Still do.

I always thought engineers to be a rather "pristine" lot. Consequently, what I didn't anticipate from engineers, from the male of the species, was bad politics. I anticipated good politics focused on the job. What I got I couldn't have anticipated, which is why I seriously contemplate writing about my experiences. I am not unique and I bet girls contemplating engineering cannot see what's ahead either.

What I know today is that bad politics doesn't know any boundaries. Good politics doesn't either, thankfully.

 

[KENAT]

Um, I'm not sure it's just women that would benefit of having a better understanding of "what they may have to deal with before they choose a field". I see much of the same 'politics' if you want to call it that, that I've heard others complain about in other fields.

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[lacajun]

Kenat, I agree but this thread is about women and I am a woman, which means I have zero experience being a man in a man's world. There have been a few days I wished to be a man but only a few.

 

[KENAT]

Yeah, peeing standing up comes in handy occasionally lacajun;-).

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[lacajun]

I have a Lady J for just such purposes. Wanna' see who can pee the furtherest?

I apologize for that but couldn't help myself. I'm an old backpacker and don't have too many issues w/ some stuff. Perhaps I should.......

 

[lacajun]

I made a mistake......it is not a Lady J but a Sani Fresh Freshette. It comes in handy in civilization, too, when facilities are too nasty to use. Yuck!

 

[lisa247]

jmw - you are incredibly sexist!

Lisa

 

[jmw]

Hi Lisa247,
Probably, but it isn't intentionally so.... is it something I've said?]

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[lisa247]

"By that I mean that I can understand a bloke being unduly influenced to hire an attractive female, but I am far less happy when the boss promotes some sycophantic suck-up."

What if the woman was a 'sycophantic suck-up'? You have just basically said that you think its acceptable for people to hire women purely based on how they look.

Lisa

 

[jmw]

Ah, no. I didn't express it very well.

I don't actually condone either behaviour but I do like to put things in perspective.

My SB (SO) likes to treat all things equally. Nuclear war and a split nail all get the same response. I try to assess things according to their relative significance in my life.

Being a man with all the vulnerabilities that go with it, a bad management decision, perhaps even pushed by HR to fill quota's is at least understandable. It is a weakness that shouldn't normally be too disastrous.

But it shows a far greater lack of management skills, and a greater weakness of character when a manager is taken in by that most recognisable of behaviours, the brown-noser (male or female).

It was evident in this case that the fault was one sided. The women who got the job soon left it.

We might suppose she didn't find she was able to do thee work and recognised that she got the job for the wrong reasons. She left the job. She also, it appears, made the idiot who hired her look a bit stupid.
The brown-noser probably knows full well he is unable to do the job but has deliberately followed a path to get this job. He then will not relinquish it except for a better job and certainly consolidates the new found position by stabbing as many people as possible.
Believe me, when you have been the victim of a brown-noser who actively harms you and your career, you tend not to worry so much about some of the other stupid decisions management make.
That was what I meant.

I know, as Lacajan reminds us, the purpose of this thread is to discuss women engineers, but not all the problems are of equal significance.

But you are probably right that I am an MCP, I like to think a sympathetic one, but it is in my genes! ]

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com