Women in the workplace... 21

[kmtswims]

I am the only female engineer in my company. The company itself has approximately 16 employees and 3 owners, we have a female secretary and one of the owner's wife works part time as the Office manager. I have been an employee for 2.5 years and this is my first job out of college.

I have noticed a lot of sexism in my workplace, mostly in the form of inappropriate comments (although they are not usually aimed at me, just stated out loud) and being left out in both business and personal. I totally understand that people are not always invited to things and that is people's choices but to be left out of business meetings and such is appalling. I am also chastised about almost everything constantly and of course no one backs me up for anything because the "boys always stick together". I am wondering if this is happening to other women out there in the engineering field.

 

[nate2003]

kmtswims,
First of all, I think there is no excuse for genuine sexual harrassment. Before my wife and I were married she worked at a place where someone who was married kept telling her that he loved her, wanted to marry her, wanted to have kids with her, wanted her to go out with him, etc. That is sexual harrassment. If someone says "you are not allowed to work on this job, come to this meeting, because you are a girl", that is gender discrimination, which is also wrong, but shouldn't be confused with harrassment. Both are intolerable in the workplace.

Then there is workplace joshing. It happens everyday at all levels in the company. The Ford guys harrass the losers that drive Chevys or even worse if they drive Dodges. They guys and girls go at it both ways. As an engineer I am teased when I wash my hands because I actually did something to get my hands dirty. The big people make comments about the short people. There's country boys vs. city boys. Local people vs. "pot smokers" from Milwaukee. Fly fishermen vs. bait fisherman. The shop floor tease the management because of the money they must make. Yes, I've been told I would understand something because I'm a man. I also get to hear the women talk about the "hot" guy outside surveying our property or the "hot" legs on the guy putting up the sign out front.

It sounds like you may be experiencing both gender descrimination and joshing, but I don't know about sexual harrassment. You need to deal with the descrimination with the management. As far as the joshing, realize that you will get teased about something. If someone says something about your driving or reading, slam him back with something else. Guys like to be funny and tease. If you come back with something they will probably think "This girl is cool, one of the guys." Most guys return insults, so that is what they expect.

If it really does bother you about the girl teasing, let them know, be upfront and honest with them. There are somethings I don't like being teased about either. Just expect that they will find something else to tease you about. It's human nature and I think that everyone want to have a little fun at work.

Wish you the best.

"I have had my results for a long time, but I do not yet know how I am to arrive at them." Karl Friedrich Gauss

 

[TheRaptor]

kmtswims,

I do feel sorry for whats happening to you. I hope you find your way around soon.

Hey boys, why dont we start a global engineering organisation? Kmtswims, TurbulentFluid, Parsnip and all other girls, would u like to join us? And then instead of using this forum, we can discuss r problems thro the company's bulletin board. Now what shall we call such a company?

 

[Latexman]

If everyone would speak in public and business as if they are talking to their parents, grandparents, children, grandchildren, or spouse, the world would be a better place.

Let's leave the dirty talk for "behind the barn" conversations.

Good luck,
Latexman

 

[Senselessticker]

I work in a large A/E firm where the male/female ratio is about 20/1 when it comes to engineers....hmmm...must be why I spend so much time sipping coffee (cubical hovering) with the Architects and Accountants!!!

Men have been stuck in engineering firms for years and years without the company of females. Usually "inappropriate" comments are not indented to offend females, but are rather just the product of learned behaivor as result of gender isolation in the work place. In addition...male engineers *usually* have a difficult time interacting with women in general. Try not to get offended if the "boys" in the office are teasing you, its most likely an indication that you are liked.

HOWEVER...if you are female and want to project the "hard a**, i'm as good and better, hear me, see me, watch me out do you attitude"...expect the "boys" around the office to aviod you. Its likely you'll receive a promotion someday (mostly out of corporate fear of lawsuit), which in turn will result in the "boys" resigning or looking for a different job with a different boss.

 

[Twoballcane]

I’m sorry for the post that hints that she should change to accommodate the men or that the horse playing is ok is absolutely wrong. She has come into this field as a professional and hens should be treated like a professional. I’m in my early thirties and the way I see it is that the older generation of men has a hard time dealing with professional women while the younger generation of men have an easier time dealing with professional women. This may contribute that the younger generation maybe dating/married to one.

kmtswims,
My suggestion to you is to leave the company and join a company that has an Ethics program in place. Companies with an Ethics program have a more professional atmosphere than these small companies with “old boys club” atmosphere that will make you feel secluded.



Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[sms]

Part of the problem is the small company. Large companies, at least in the US are very sensitive to this sort of thing and usually do not tolerate it.

Having said that Shell is looking for engineers and would love to hire women for the open positions. Shell is very big on diversity and inclusiveness and does not tolerate harassment. Go to the Shell website for more info.

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

 

[graybeach]

Hi Kmtswims,
Sorry you are having a hard time.

In my particular area of practice there is a lot of diversity. A woman engineer is just one of the mix. At least on the technical side, the effective engineers are going to rise to the top regardless of sex, race, country of origin, accent etc. A company that is as bigotted as yours seems to be is going to lose in the long run because the smart people will not stay.

All in all, in my 20+ years as an engineer, I have seen very little of what you describe, but I have seen some. In one case a male supervisor told me to "just do it sweetheart," when I was trying to point out something that was not going to work. That was pretty upsetting. I did not back down, and I eventually convinced him. When you are a young engineer in this situation, it is usually best to play a bit dumb yourself: "Hmm, I tried to do the calculation like you said, but I could not get it to work - can you sit down with me and show me what I am missing?"

Of course, there have been off color remarks here and there. I generally choose to ignore that stuff and concentrate on getting my job done. But I have been known to get up and close someone's office door if they are being particularly ignorant.

I would advise you to thicken your skin as much as possible, and start looking for a new job. Do not complain to your boss or HR without fully considering the consequences.

 

[JStephen]

I haven't worked in a lot of different places, but in the few I have, I've noticed big differences in what's acceptable. Not necessarily in male/female things, but such things as whether it's acceptable to shout at employees, use of profanity in the workplace, etc.

The "being left out in business and personal" may or may not be a gender thing. I've always gotten along with co-workers, but they weren't all my buddies after work, either. And ditto on the meetings.

 

[EddyC]

kmtswims,

Your employer, as you know, is a "mom-and-pop" and not a corporation. You can't really count on them to do much of anything to address the problem that you identified. You being a recent employee, they would probably choose to side with your more senior colleagues and try to find some way to jettison you. The easier path would be for you to move on quietly. That way you may be able to get some kind of references from them, which is important in some of the industries in which engineers work. Especially when the time comes to pursue your PE. Why bother to risk your career just to make a point? The lawsuits that we hear about in the media generally apply to more senior workers that make a great deal more money than a newcomer to a job. There are plenty of employers out there. Many have balanced work environments that encourage an employee's growth & happiness. Try to find this type of employer.

 

[sns777]

Kmtswims,

I am a female civil engineer and here are some of my random experiences over the last 12 years.

My former boss told me that I had to work harder because I was a female engineer.
When I was in college, I had a male student tell me I couldn't be in civil engineering because that was HIS major. I guess he didn't want me there. Recently I've had clients look at me and ask me "who checks your work?" I had another client who, at a meeting, shook my boss's hand (looking him in the eye) and then shook my hand briefly while never taking his eyes off my boss (never looked me in the eye.) Just a few weeks ago my boss had a site meeting with one of our clients. I asked him if he needed me to go along. He said that our client is a crotchety old man that doesn’t like women much so it probably would be better if I didn't go along. I had a meeting with a sanitary sewer "foreman" and he asked me why I became a civil engineer because he thought it was more of a rough branch of engineering and why would I want to do it. A while back, a group of people were discussing women in engineering and someone said "just about anybody can be an engineer these days."

My former boss had a problem out on a site. He had practically everybody in the office working on it except me. I asked him why he didn't invite me out on the job as I would LOVE to go. He said "I'm sorry. I just figured that you wouldn't like getting dirty. It's real muddy out there." When you make a mistake, if you are a male, they will chalk it up to being "green" or "learning from your mistakes" or perhaps they will give you a mentor to show you the ropes. If your female, you will be labeled as dumb. When a good engineering learning experience comes along (a new, innovative design, a challenging problem in the field, etc.) it has been my experience that I wasn't invited.) Actually it just happened to me this week. We had flooding issues in the Northeast this past week. My boss headed out to check out some sinkholes, etc and took a two male colleagues with him to take pictures, etc. Several months ago, there was a contractor's demonstration of a new product that I would have LOVED to see. I didn't find out about it until the guys got back from the demo. My former boss had three tickets to a professional lunchen. There were three engineers (including me) in my office. He invited the two male engineers and their wives but not me and my husband. The kicker is that the extra ticket went completely unused.

When I started in eng. I truly naively thought the prejudice didn't exist anymore. A thing of the past. I was dead wrong. But before you get too discouraged realize (this is very important) NOT EVERYBODY IS LIKE THIS. I have met a few non-prejudice, intelligent male engineers and non-engineers in my working life and have enjoyed working with them and learned a lot from them. You may have to keep searching to find a place where you are accepted. I believe these places do exist and there are people that are not prejudice. You just have to keep looking. In the mean time, find your support system somewhere outside of work (i.e. family and friends.) Also (and this is hard for me to write) be sure YOU are not prejudice. Imagine my egg on my face when some new female engineers were recently hired at my job and I thought, gee I wonder what THEY know. I caught myself thinking this and told myself to STOP. Then I went to see how I could mentor THEM.

P.S. I do occasionally go out to lunch with the office "girls" and I find it very fun!

P.P.S. It's easy just to say go looking for a new job. Sometimes that is best. But sometimes that is not always an option.

P.P.P.S. I was sexually harrassed at both a non-engineering (inappropriate touching) and engineering job (guy followed me and hopped in my car and wouldn't get out). Didn't report it the first time becauase I didn't stay at the job. I reported it the second time ( the engineering job) and the guy was fired. Sexual harrassment can happen ANYWHERE, not just at an engineering job.

 

[sns777]

After I wrote that post, I realized that I might have sounded too negative. So I wanted to add. Keep your chin up girl! Focus on the positive! Keep your sense of humor. I have had MANY positive experiences as a female engineer, really. Even regarding the negative experiences, "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger." So there was some good advice on this thread, especially nate2003 which I feel his advise was right on. I hope you able to work this out. Engineering really can be a good experience.

 

[HgTX]

Every time I hear stories like gabbot's, I always think, "Damn, I thought that crap was done." I heard stories exactly like that from my MOTHER fergodsake.

Fortunately I've only really had one such experience since I've been in the engineering workforce, and it was pretty mild: I'd done all the editing, personally overseen most of the proofreading, and had a fair amount of technical input into the rewriting of our 1200-page standard specfications. 20 hours a week for three years on top of my normal engineering responsibilities. Another guy, working in a non-engineering function but with the same job title for this particular project, had set up the Word template and done some proofreading. When public thanks were issued, the head of the agency (who'd never met either of us personally) made it sound like the other guy had done all kinds of technical work, and that I'd pretty much just handled document distribution ("and kept everyone in line, chuckle chuckle"). I'm pretty sure that there would have been a very different spin on things had our first names been reversed.

And then there was the old guy at a national-level committee meeting who assumed I was with the hotel staff. (Serves me right for wearing a black suit.)

But if that's as bad as it gets, I'm in a pretty good situation.

So no, they *aren't* all like that, and I'd definitely recommend going in search of better. In the original poster's case, it looks like she'll be looking for another job for geographical reasons soon enough anyway; hopefully she'll have better luck in the new place.

And yes, I hang out with the "office ladies" too. After a lifetime of making friends mostly with males, I find myself gravitating toward the few females around here.

But then I am not in a position to need to prove that I'm better (in a purely engineering sense) than the office ladies. I can understand how an engineer who feels she is being treated like a secretary would be afraid to tar herself with a secretarial brush by association.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[JJPellin]

I am a male engineer, but am fortunate to work for a company that hires a lot of female engineers, especially in the Chemical engineering ranks. We have perhaps 25% female engineers. This is probably much higher that most companies. I think that some managers realized years ago that women engineers are often smarter, often work harder, are more polite and pleasant to work with. It might sound like reverse descrimination, but I suspect that they selectively recruit female engineers because of these advantages. If anyone in our company treated any of these women with anything less that the same respect they give to the male engineers, they would be immediately confronted. Inappropriate behavior is counterproductive and should not be tolerated. There are good companies out there that treat female engineers properly. Look around and you can find one.

 

[epoisses]

Oh come on JJPellin... women engineers are smarter and work harder than males, are more polite and pleasant to work with??? What study did point that out?

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

I am always being told that there are so few women in engineering and science but in my first job (biochem) all four of the scientists I worked with were women and one of the three interns. In my current job there are 6 engineers in R&D, three women and three men. And the women hold the more senior positions. I know that isn't typical, but I guess my point is there are companies out there that treat men and women the same. And companies that favor women too, I suppose.

That said there was one very nasty issue at my first job were a employee was harassing the female intern to the point where she quit. (It all turned out okay though, when the situation was discovered he was let go and she returned to work.)

 

[ctopher]

I worked at an engineering company several years ago. I saw that all docs were still manual written. So, I automated them on the PC's.
My boss liked it. He wanted to test 2 of them and asked me to give a copy to an engineer (female) to try out for a couple weeks.
A couple weeks later we had a department meeting. I was sitting in the back. The VP stood up and said the female engineer was going to show us a presentation.
It was the automated forms I created! She said she created them and it will be standard for the company. I stood up and said "This is bull**it!!", and walked out.
After the meeting, others came to me and asked how did that happen. The female eng walked by and I asked her why she did it. Her answer: "Because I'm a b**ch".
I was laid off a couple weeks later.
It took me a few years to get over working with another female engineer.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 06-21-06)

 

[zdas04]

Come on Chris, that isn't a gender isssue, it is an integrity issue. The jerk taking credit for your work could have just as easily been a man. Then would you have been reluctant to work with guys?

David

 

[EddyC]

ctopher,

Most women aren't "b*****s".

 

[Quantum50]

However, I would have difficulty working with a guy who was a b***h!

 

[ctopher]

David,
At the time, it was a gender issue. I know since then it isn't.
Eddy,
I also know most women aren't "b*****s".

I was just sharing a story about my experience at the time working with women.
I guess what I should have wrote was, the women at the time were favored by management because of what they were wearing or how they acted.
I have nothing against working with women, in some cases I prefer it.

My pet peeve is at most companies I have worked at, it's usually the women that sit on the phone or email most of the day and don't get much work done, and get away with it.
If I'm in the bathroom for more than 3 minutes, I'm reprimanded!
My current job, I have to listen to music through earphones so I don't have to listen to all the personal talk and laughing between the women.
Sorry for rant, sore subject for me, I'm done.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 06-21-06)