Working locally or via the network

[EUANS]

We are a small company & have two seats of SWX 2003. Until recently both PCs were of identical specification, (P3, 1GHz, 512MBRAM, NT4). Both PCs were connected to the companywide network with a connection speed of 100MB/s. CAD data however was not saved on the company server but on one of the two CAD PCs.
We have now replaced that PC with a P4, 3GHz, 1.5GBRAM, W2K machine. In addition we have increased the local network speed between the two CAD PCs to 1 GB/s. Again, the intention is to use this new PC for storing all CAD data.
Because we are only a small company it is felt that an EDM system is not required.
Now to my question. Obviously the present set-up still benefits the user of the PC where the data is stored but would there be any net performance advantage in using the redundant P3 machine as a local server for the two PCs?

 

[josephv]

Hello EUANS,

You were sharing data peer to peer before? Is this correct?

If so, using Windows server is generally faster and more stable than peer to peer. Your best bet is to talk to a good Network consultant.

By the way... "Because we are only a small company it is felt that an EDM system is not required."

Everyone needs a EDM or PDM system, even small companies need it. How else are you going to manage your CAD data effectively?

And PDM stores files in a secure vault (on the server) and copies file locally when you edit them (this results in a performance gain because it is always faster to work locally than over the wire.)

Cheers,

Joseph

 

[SBaugh]

I managed over 5000+ files everyday without a PDM system. I was in a company of 500+ people. Not everyone needs a PDM system. There are companies out there that are larger than that, that manage their data just fine without PDM. I don't think everyone needs a PDM.

Not to say there are not some benefits of using PDM. But there can be some cons to PDM too.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
3DVision Technologies

http://www.3dvisiontech.com

http://www.scottjbaugh.com

faq731-376
When in doubt, always check the help

 

[EUANS]

Josephv
Thanks for your reply. Before I can answer your question can you explain what you understand the term "peer to peer" to mean.
The situation we have here is that user#1 is working locally and user#2 is accessing (reading/writing) information from user#1's PC. Because user#1 is working locally he can open/save files much more quickly than user#2. However it isn't "all roses" for user#1 because his PC has the additional burden of having to read/write infromation for both users whilst processing information for user#1.
By introducing a local server then both users would have to pull information off-line but user#1's PC would no longer have the burden of having to manage the sharing of files.
With regard to EDM systems I have found it easier in small organisations to manually manage data.

 

[MadMango]

I think everyone starts off trying to manage files manually. My company had about 40k files that we managed to control without PDM. Sooner or later though, a company does get some form of PDM. I think once your eyes are opened to the benefits of having a PDM system, you won't want to ever handle them manually again. And Scott is right, there are major Cons to be encountered, especially if it is implemented wrong.

As for your 3rd computer acting like a server for the other 2, you might see some improvement, but nothing drastic. A P3 computer I am guessing is about 3 years old, and if you're lucky your FSB is 133mhz. That's going to be a huge bottleneck if you are going to rely on that as a server.

MadMango
"Probable impossibilities are to be preferred to improbable possibilities."
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[josephv]

Hello EUANS,

Peer to peer is exactly what you described...

".. user#1 is working locally and user#2 is accessing (reading/writing) information from user#1's PC."

A server is faster, but as MadMango said, "A P3 computer I am guessing is about 3 years old, and if you're lucky your FSB is 133mhz. That's going to be a huge bottleneck if you are going to rely on that as a server. "

Hello Scott and MadMango,

Sorry, but I have to disagree strongly on the PDM.

Even a 1 man company needs PDM (e.g. a self employed engineer working out of his basement).

Why? Because, we spend over 10% of our time looking for files (Industry Standard for users that do not have PDM). Or we can spend a couple hundred bucks get PDM and spend 0% of our time looking for files.

In the near future we will ridicule CAD users that do not have PDM the same way that we ridicule 2D CAD users right now (I don't mean to offend, I just want to make a point).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

[NathanN]

EUANS,

Your system seems to have 2 very big problems.

1, If the harddrive on your storage computer fails, both of you have to stop working until a replacement drive can be obtained and all the software installed.

2, Unless you are backing up to your server or onto CD, then you're living dangerously. If the harddrive fails, you'll lose all your data. :-(

1, can be solved by getting raid mirroring on your storage computer. But to be honest, I think you'd be mad not to use your gigabit network to store the data on your server. That way you get the high speed connection, data backup and you aren't relying on one computer.

 

[SBaugh]

I have to strongly disagree with you Josephv. Not everyone needs a PDM, even though I know the benefits of PDM. There are some serious cons to PDM. Do you use Toolbox at your site? There is a big problem with toolbox and PDM works, when you have multiple users trying to access the same file and make changes to it without messing up the master file. We found a workaround, but you can't have Toolbox inside of PDMWorks which by the way is recommend by SW to not have Toolbox in your PDM library anyhow. The workaround was to make ALL configs, of ALL the fastners that they use, before users started using toolbox. Then put Toolbox on the server for all users to use. There was still a sharing violation, but it still worked fine. PDM could not fix this problem other than it could aleviate the sharing problem but that was it.

I'm a little confused after re-reading that we users (that don't have PDM) spend 10% of our time looking for files. How do you figure that?

That has never been a problem for me. I spent years tracking files without PDM and there were never any problems...for 5 years it was like that.

I don't doubt that PDM is a benefit to large, medium and some small companies, but I do feel that not everyone should think that they need some PDM software and all their problems will go away. Because setting up a PDM isn't easy and isn't cheap. Plus I don't want users out here thinking they need it when they probably really don't. I hate to see people waste their money on something that they really don't need yet. Large companies with lots of users should probably use a PDM (I know some large companies now that don't use PDM and they are running fine without it).

I don't mean to offend you or anyone else either , I just want to make the point that not everyone needs PDM like you intially posted. And it's not that I don't agree with you about the benefits, there are just some Cons that you haven't obvisously ran into yet.

Best Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
3DVision Technologies

http://www.3dvisiontech.com

http://www.scottjbaugh.com

faq731-376
When in doubt, always check the help

 

[macPT]

josephv

Why do you need to look for files? We manage more than 3000 files and we don't need to look for any of them! And without a PDM (we are a 3 designers team).

If you have an efficient folder structure, file naming and protection procedure, work management and planing, I don't see where you can loose files or get sharing or revisons violations.

In my opinion (but I am not an expert) PDM is necessary for big design teams, specially those that can have several designers working in the same project and files, resulting in revisions mess.

I don't agree that "not using PDM is ridicule". I don't fill that at all. I think what is dangerous is try to use PDM without even try to organize the design system and hope that it will be the cure for all the pains (don't trust that). I also think that, in small teams, PDM don't pays the effort for it's management. Don't try to kill a fly with a machine gun.

Regards

 

[MadMango]

In order to impliment any PDM solution, you have to have all your files organized, consistant and logical. The flip-side is if your files are organized, consistant and logical, and you are only dealing with a small design team or projects, then you won't see a need for PDM.

If you do have a lot of "hands in the mix" or are working on several projects, some of which utilize common parts and sub-assemblies, then you will see huge benefits for getting PDM.

MadMango
"Probable impossibilities are to be preferred to improbable possibilities."
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[macPT]

MadMango, SBaugh

I agree 100% with you!

Regards

 

[jbknudsen]

Howdy all,

For what its worth, here is my take on the situation. I agree that if the design team is small and in one location that managing drawings without EDM,PDM is very doable. I currently work for a companys R&D division. There are four of us here. We work good together and are very aware of the projects running thru or dept. On the other hand I worked at Cooper-Cameron for a good while and one of the projects was engineered and designed here in the states as well as in the Asian-Pacific area. We needed EDM and it worked well. I think it would be good for "EUANS" to evaluate his specific environment. If document control is a pain, than mabe you are a candidate for the software. If the department runs smooth and document control is not an issue, dont spend the money where it is not needed.

The server issue.
My main concern is that you will be slowing down the user on machine #1 because he will, no doubt, see hangups throughout the day as a result of the other machine accessing it. I would also be concerned with loosing data as a result of the #1 machine going on the fritz. Even with a third machine, there is no guarntee against data problems, however, the third machine can be backed up every day or a couple of times a day with out the rest of the dept seeing a slowdown. Case in point, one of our machines had a total meltdown yesterday and everything on his machine was a total loss. Fortunately the machine was not the server.

Anyway, thats my humble thought on the matter.



Jesus is the WAY the LIFE and the TRUTH,

-Jay

 

[macPT]

jbknudsen

The need of a PDM is one problem. The use of a server and the safety of the data is another.

We have experienced an "in between" solution that was: the working files where on the designer computer. The production files where on the server.

Sun we realised that this was not the best and the safest arrengement. We bought a better server, with more disk space, and now all the files are in the server. The server makes a bakup every 0:00h (in different tapes).

I think that, in a small company, with a small team, a server can be an expensive tool. They can find alternatives to organize their work, with more or less efficiency. But there's one thing that we can't think cheap: data safety.

Regards