Working on unpermitted work that should be permitted 7

[BR0]

In the area I work (California) there are legal requirements for contractors that work on construction that is unpermitted. There are civil penalties and suspension or revocation of their license if they work on these projects.

Does anyone know if there are similar rules for engineers in the Professional Engineers Act or elsewhere? I'm probably looking in the wrong places but I've exhausted my searching abilities for this.

This would mainly involve construction phase work, responding to RFIs, change orders and observations. Both myself and the company I work for won't work on projects like this, but it can get awkward as we don't know about it until the construction phase.

Thanks in advance.

 

[WARose]

I'm not aware of any.....but it's probably not ethical. (If not illegal.) This is probably best answered by a board.

To be frank, a lot of times I have no knowledge what the status of the permit is when I work on the project. That's usually in the civil and/or owner's domain.

 

[driftLimiter]

Its not our responsibility as engineers to make sure that the contractor / owner file permits as required by law. I have always just done the work as if it were going to be submitted for permit. Even if they try to tell me it doesn't have to etc. I don't reduce fee/efforts. I give them a complete set of CDs and its up to them to do what is correct with it.

Now If I was called to a site and then informed they don't have a permit, and they were running into major issues. Then that is where I would probably have to write a letter to the B. Official.

 

[BR0]

Now If I was called to a site and then informed they don't have a permit, and they were running into major issues.

Yes, I'm talking about the construction phase. The design phase is pre-permit, so it really wouldn't cover that, unless you were part of the planning not to get a permit.

I'll try asking the board if that is possible.

Thanks

 

[SWComposites]

If the construction phase is unpermitted and you are aware it is not, why would you want to have anything to do with it?

 

[BR0]

If the construction phase is unpermitted and you are aware it is not, why would you want to have anything to do with it?

I want nothing to do with it and I do refuse to work on it when I do know. Of course, I never know until after my design work is done, so this impacts the construction. This was just a question about it in theory and not something I do or recommend.

It is strange to me that this does happen on commercial work fairly often in our area.

 

[Greenalleycat]

I'm sure your ethical/legal obligations are the same but different to ours, but here is the Code of Ethics we legally have to follow as Chartered Engineers

1. Take reasonable steps to safeguard health and safety
2. Have regard to effects on environment
3. Report adverse consequences
4. Act competently
5. Behave appropriately
6. Inform others of consequences of not following advice
7. Maintain confidentiality
8. Report breach of Code

Knowingly giving construction advice on a project that you know should be permitted/consented but is not possibly fails 1 & 2, and definitely fails 4 % 5. Your obligations under 3 & 6 would also obligate you to notify the Client firstly that they are doing non-permitted work and what the consequences of that are - in writing. If they ignore that, you're obligated to escalate to your local authority IMO

 

[BR0]

7. Maintain confidentiality
8. Report breach of Code

My understanding is that breaching client confidentiality can only be done if it is a life safety issue. I really don't think that just not getting a permit rises to this level. Since I'm not going out to see the work, I won't know if they are doing anything wrong except not getting a permit.

 

[Greenalleycat]

Noting again that your jurisdiction is different to mine, here are my thoughts

You have the obligations under 3 & 6 to advise your client once you know that they are acting illegally (doing unpermitted work)
I have had this debate with my boss about whether we are obligated to take it further than that - he was of the view of no, advising our client in writing adn terminating our involvement is sufficient
I was of the mind that we are obligated to take it further - otherwise the obligation to maintain confidentiality is effecting obligating you to be complicit in illegal activity, which doesn't make sense to me

 

[SwinnyGG]

My understanding is that breaching client confidentiality can only be done if it is a life safety issue.

No permit (and no actual on-site visits or supervision from the EOR, which I assume is you) means no inspections.

I would argue that the erection of any occupied structure without any inspections whatsoever is a life safety issue.

 

[Greenalleycat]

You quoted the wrong person mate, I didn't say that haha
I agree, I don't think confidentiality extends to staying silent as your client undertakes illegal activity

 

[dik]

About 50 years back I was involved in a project where the EOR had used ACI shear friction for design of some spandrel beams supporting masonry. He was always at odds with the City of Winnipeg, and they refused to accept his calculations (his calcs were correct, just not recognised). They put a stop work order on the site. We decided to do a load test of the connection. The city became aware of this and got a court injunction to stop the load test. With a court injunction, the only advice our lawyer could offer, jokingly, was to have a couple of drinks and there may be extenuating circumstances. The load test was undertaken and the connection passed...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[SwinnyGG]

You quoted the wrong person mate, I didn't say that haha

Sorry about that, corrected!

 

[jerseyshore]

I love the unpermitted work. You get paid for the initial and then paid again to save their ass when the red sticker is on the door. Double dip.

 

[BR0]

A lot of good suggestions and things to think about.
Probably many of you know about this:

https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethics/code-ethics

This is a pretty interesting one about the different cases that have come up regarding the issue:

https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethi...al-review-cases/duty-report-safety-violations

 

[GeorgeTheCivilEngineer]

I have had this debate with my boss about whether we are obligated to take it further than that - he was of the view of no, advising our client in writing adn terminating our involvement is sufficient
I was of the mind that we are obligated to take it further - otherwise the obligation to maintain confidentiality is effecting obligating you to be complicit in illegal activity, which doesn't make sense to me

There are a few options in the UK - anonymous reporting to HSE is definitely possible and I'm sure there's a way to quietly get concerns to Building Control. Failing that, CROSS (cross-safety.org/uk) is a deliberately anonymous way to get safety issues raised in industry.

 

[jerseyshore]

I barely have enough time to do the projects let along worry about whether or not the owner or contractor took out a permit for that work. Plus things vary so greatly between towns & states that what is required for a permit in one town is not required the next town over. And that sticker in the window might be for a plumbing permit for all I know.

I can only control my work, designs, & specifications and keep them to a high and ethical standard. The contractor is risking the big fine by doing unpermitted work, not me. My stuff meets code regardless if Mr. Code Official is checking it or not.

 

[Greenalleycat]

Well, here's what our professional body has to say on it - pretty clear cut, don't get involved in unconsented works

https://www.engineeringnz.org/news-...ing New Zealand,lack of honesty or integrity.

I'm baffled that anyone here is advocating that you get in involved to be honest
It's pretty obvious that work requiring a consent requires a consent and you do not want to wrap yourself up into that
You will end up taking all liability for the design and will be dragged into the resultant lawsuit if council gets involved

 

[BR0]

I'm baffled that anyone here is advocating that you get in involved to be honest

I don't think anyone is really advocating that. Pretty interesting article and at least in NZ it sounds like there is punishment for an engineer to work on un-permitted work. Lot's of acronyms as well.

 

[Greenalleycat]

I was referencing attitudes like

I can only control my work, designs, & specifications and keep them to a high and ethical standard. The contractor is risking the big fine by doing unpermitted work, not me. My stuff meets code regardless if Mr. Code Official is checking it or not.

I completely agree that I'm not going to spend my days following up clients to see whether they got a consent on their job or not
But if they ask me to be involved then I will ask to see the consented plans if I expect that the work should have got consent
If they can't supply them, I walk off the job - it's not hard or rocket science