Working with industrial designers 1

[KENAT]

Not sure this is the best forum but seems as good as any and a quick search didn't change my mind.

I had a phone call with an Industrial Designer earlier that we've used a few times previously who ranted about the way we have used their services.

Basically we'll give them the basic product information/envelope etc. and have them come up with some schemes for packaging it to be more aesthetically pleasing and in some cases meet certain ergonomics requirements etc. In one or two cases we've then actually had them do some of the detail design of the covers etc, in other cases we've used their concepts as a starting point and then fleshed the rest out our selves because with the time schedules we usually have we to go to them before everything is fleshed out so changes occur etc.

It seems this latter approach is highly offensive to him. It was like we were somehow undermining his artistic integrity or something. Apparently we should have gone back to him for every little change and paid him the tens of thousands of dollars it would cost without batting an eye lid. Now this guy has done the design of some high profile items which if I said the name you’d all recognize but still. He also started going on about how he was trained in this type of thing or something and how many industrial designers wouldn’t’ put up with it and wouldn’t allow their designs to be changed.

Our products are low volume, though fairly high price. However, 50-100k spread over say a couple of hundred units is still a sizeable chunk.

I can kind of understand that it may be frustrating coming up with something you think is really good then having it butchered by what you perceive as 'amateurs' but most of the 'butchery' is for a good reason driven by some design requirement or another. These products are scientific/industrial metrology instruments not consumer goods so while aesthetics are important they aren't the be all and end all, at least in my opinion.

So is this typical of how industrial designers work, or is our guy a prema donna? Are any industrial designers out there willing to just provide basic concepts for companies to then build on, or do you insist on controlling every little detail?

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[vc66]

He should do whatever's in the contract to do. He should not complain about getting paid. That's downright stupid.

My boss takes my great ideas, and effs them up all the time! I don't get paid any more for it.

KENAT--Being at the same company as you, I've learned a few things. Nothing makes sense. People will pay for complete crap. Smile and wave.

Good luck, man.

V

 

[HDS]

The best way to deal with your guy is to be up front about what you need and what you will do with it. Your guy may just be proud or he could be honestly asking why you are spending the money if you won't use his design.

As other have said there are many small ID firms that are very flexible about what they deliver.

Some manufacturers are bringing design in house to make themselves stand out from the guys in China that just make parts. Themofab is one example. Others will have an ID that they work with as a consultant. It is more popular in plastic parts than other things that are less cosmetic. Sometimes their basic service will be used to draw up sketch that win the job. Other times they will be hired to do all the deigns and manufacturing. One of the nice things about them is that you have assurances the parts can be made.

Yours is a tough market to design for. For years the expectation was "as long as it isn't ugly". Now it has to look like it is expensive.

 

[KENAT]

HDS, I was up front with him. We did end up going with him and are part way through the process the way he wants to do it.

If we'd had more time and I'd had more say in the matter I'd probably have looked elsewhere but I'm sure we'll muddle through with this guy. He did have quite a change of tune in later correspondence so it may work out OK.

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[bvanhiel]

If you know that changes are going to be made then you and your ID firm need to reserve some budget to deal with it. Just as the ID firm can't understand all of your technical concerns, you're not going to understand all the details of the design.

I frequently watch our ID partner send work out to be butchered by their client's engineering staff. I've been responsible for fixing their mistakes on more than one occasion when their client's VP of marketing wouldn't let it out the door. I hate to say it, but I can easily picture one of their engineering managers writing your email verbatim.

Your guy may or may not be a prima donna (there are plenty of them out there), but if you're making significant form changes without getting some ID input, then you're probably just flushing all the money your company paid them down the toilet. The distance between "award winning design" and "garbage" is much shorter than most engineers think.

Good product design requires cooperation between design and engineering. Throwing it over the wall doesn't work.

 

[KENAT]

bvanhiel, I haven't been the one setting the budget or creating the project plan etc. If I had I'd probably have done a few things differently.

The scope has changed somewhat since I was given the task, the requirement to get external ID being the most obvious. I didn't make the original decision not to have external ID done, just like I didn't make the decision to now get it done.

Fundamentally in a lot of areas, not just this one of ID, our management seem to want to play like they're a big company with high volume when really they're a medium one with a range of low volume products. As such the budget required to do in depth ID going back and forth for each significant change/iteration isn’t there.

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[bvanhiel]

KENAT,

If that's true, then your ire is misdirected. It's not the ID firm's fault that your company doesn't know how to integrate design into it's process. It's your management's. Your company needs to get a project manager that understands the importance of design and how to manage it.

If you want to put out well designed products then you, your management and your ID firm need to understand how to work together. I don't know what kind of products you make, but $50-100k is a pretty large budget for most ID firms. There should be plenty of money to involve ID for the whole process if you spend it wisely.

I strongly suspect that the reason the ID firm doesn't want to give you sketches is because they fully expect you to continue the butchering. They probably feel that the only way they can ensure the final design reflects the design intent is to do it themselves.

 

[vc66]

If you want to put out well designed products then you, your management and your ID firm need to understand how to work together.

HA! You don't know who we work for!

V

 

[HgTX]

It sounds like it may come down to the difference of bringing in a designer, as a designer, to design, or bringing in a designer as a consultant to advise your company on your company's design.

Hg

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[KENAT]

You've nailed it HgTX, we essentially wanted a consult and had a corresponding budget, the ID is essentially refusing to do that but wanting to take over the entire activity.

This is the point of this post.

So having been on the receiving end of the ID's rant I feel perfectly entitled to a bit of ire in the ID's direction. I have plenty or ire left over for management. Though of course being a proffesional I don't let it show, honest.

As to the 50-100k, that's ball park what the Industrial Designer wanted for typical effort, it's an order of magnitude or so larger than what we typically have available/can afford. Hence we'd tried to limit our expectations to match the budget.

If the ID doesn't want to do what he's being asked to do, and there isn't budget to do what he wants to do, shouldn't he just refuse to quote? Rather than ranting to a prospective customer on the phone?

I don't do much external customer facing these days but when I did I don't remember ranting to them being considered appropriate.

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[HgTX]

Perhaps the initial presentation wasn't clear, though. If he's told, "We want to hire a designer," but then the job description turns out to be more consultant-like, it's different from telling him, "We need advice for our in-house design and would like to hire you as a consultant." Completely different set of expectations, just based on a difference of a word or two in the initial approach.

Hg

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[bvanhiel]

Maybe I misunderstood. Here's how I imagined things playing out:

1) You engage the ID firm to develop the product design.
2) ID firm works through their process with the preliminary specs that you gave them.
3) ID firm delivers some 3D models of the design.
4) Technical concerns force the product spec to change.
5) VP notices that the product doesn't look like the original design and asks for it to be "ID'd".
6) You send the current design to the firm and ask for some limited help to get things back on track.
7) ID guy sees what you've done to his baby and chews you out.

I'm guessing that he feels he needs to take over the activity if the design intent is going to be preserved. If your VP is telling you to get ID input after reviewing the product, then he's probably right.

That doesn't excuse the "rant", but I understand the impulse to do it. To him it sounds like your asking for a band-aid for your severed arm.

 

[KENAT]

HgTX I tried to be very clear in stating what I wanted for my project. I wrote a brief Statement of Work where I explicitly stated 2D data. After the initial contact I further clarified by stating something like '2D sketches' or something like that and saying a 3D model was not required. So I believe I was pretty clear in what I was asking for on my project. He refused to submit a bid for this but instead submitted a bid of what he wanted to do.

bvanhiel, your time line is not correct.

On one previous project he got upset by it was more like:

1) You engage the ID firm to develop the product design.
2) ID firm works through their process with the preliminary specs that you gave them.
3) ID firm delivers some 3D models of the design using up the entire ID budget.
4) Technical concerns force the product spec to change.
5) Changes are made internally and VP and everyone else is happy with it, Sales & Marketing love it and it sells well (given the economy).
6) ID guy sees what “you've done” to his baby and chews you out.

On another previous project that really upset him it was more like:

1) You engage the ID firm to develop the product design.
2) ID firm works through their process with the preliminary specs that you gave them.
3) ID firm delivers some 3D models of the design along with a bid to finish design & source it.
4) General Consensus is that the design is ugly, not user friendly etc. and ridiculously expensive.
5) ID’s design is essentially thrown away and a manager and an intern develop an alternate design, which is much more aesthetically pleasing & user friendly (though not without other issues).
6) Everyone else is happy with it, Sales & Marketing love it and it sells well (given the economy).
7) ID guy sees what “you've done” to his baby and chews you out.

At some point in history:

1) Then VP engages the ID firm to develop a brand for the company including ID of all products.
2) VP leaves the company.
3) Impetus of project dies but the ID gets some work, including that mentioned above.

On my project it went more like:

1) An intern with a notable lack of drive is engaged to develop the product design on the cheap with minimal, but conflicting, oversight from project lead engineer and another manager.
2) I’m asked to get involved to take over when the intern leaves and take it through to production.
3) I try to compile a preliminary spec but it’s like pulling teeth, somehow I coerce the intern into getting the basic concept to a vaguely reasonable condition and finding some potential vendors.
4) Design Review /phase gate meeting is held and VP asks if product has been "ID'd".
5) Marketing lead says it will be ID’d.
6) You send the current design & preliminary spec to the firm with a SOW asking for some limited aesthetic input, making it clear you only want 2D concepts not fully detailed designs.
7) ID guy chews you out.

So there is history with my company and this ID, which may explain some of the attitude, however I’m not sure it excuses it.

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[MikeHalloran]

I would suffer getting chewed out by a contract ID exactly once.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[KENAT]

Well that was my initial thought Mike but heaven forbid I get any authority to go with my responsibility.

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[bvanhiel]

Mike,

I agree. Once is unprofessional, but understandable. 3+ times is pathological.

KENAT,

It sounds like your company needs new ID help both externally and internally. You need ID that is engaged with your engineering to get any real value out of it. that takes a firm that is willing to work within your budget and engineers/management that recognize the value it brings.

Good luck.

 

[MikeHalloran]

You don't need any authority.

All you need is the ear of a VP who trusts you.


... Okay, that's a lot, I admit.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[KENAT]

Sorry, guess I was unclear. The three 'chew outs' were actually just the one tirade I got. Although that said, there were other comments made in other exchanges. The point being I got the pent up rant from his earlier dealings despite not having had any contact with him before.

bvanhiel, this ID thing is minor compared to some stuff. I was just trying to work out if I was being unreasonable in expecting the vendor to do more or less what I asked of him. I thought maybe ID's didn't work that way, kind of like some artists.

We really don't have the money to get the level of integration with ID you seem to be implying. I only just got my pay restored, I'm not about to give it up just to get a few more hours of this guys time.

Ear of a VP - good one Mike.

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[bvanhiel]

"Ear of a VP - good one Mike."

When you get one you can hang it around your neck as a warning to other VP's.

You can liken ID guys to artists, but the reaction your getting is probably the same one you'd get out of an engineer that saw his work misapplied.

ID doesn't have to be expensive, but it does need to keep some level of involvement in the process. Doing all of the ID work up front only works if engineering can execute without changing the design. That usually only happens if the product is just a facelift of an existing machine.

 

[KENAT]

bvvanhiel. Point was originally I was just essentially asking for general ideas, artists renderings etc. and they guy refused to do so. I wasn't asking for full blown integrated ID, because I knew we didn't have the time, manpower or budget to do it properly.

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[pierdesign]

This is what I do. Wait, this type of industrial design, not the bitching and complaining and my goodness not the $200 per hour!!!

It's difficult to properly interpret situation, but probably both of you are guilty, unequally so, of poor or unclear communication. This is often true between company and consultant for hire, not just industrial designers. Apologies if I'm assuming too much from only your several paragraphs here.

In your comments I read that all you were asking for were deliverables, but he has an intellectual task to do. I just need a sketch. I have to understand and solve numerous complex 3d spatial relationships to create a coherent design, which I'll show you in a 2d sketch. But we just want a couple of sketches where a logo goes.

He's ostensibly a trained experienced professional, you're sort of not treating him that way. And the result, probably he feared, as you itemize in your list: a bad design. It reflects on his reputation. Indeed maybe he did a bad job, maybe he was given bad inputs. And maybe he sees it hapenning agian.

That's a lot of maybe's, but it's happened to me as well, and it's a bad feeling. People handle it differently.

Certainly the prima donna attitude has no place in high value added scientific instrumentation product design. Fashion design, probably.

I face this same situation monthly. One client, a global machinery manufacturer, commissions me several times per year for multi-product design planning, branding and some engineering. Maybe once a year I get a crappy photo of machine on skid with a "We used your logo idea", everything else ignored. They asked, I did the job, they paid, that's good enough. I wish they implemented more. Incremental improvement. It has to be good enough.

Professional pride is acceptable, but not excessively so, as your industrial designer seems to be showing.

If you gave him a statement of work, why is he coming with deliverables and a request for more fees? Thoroughly unprofessional. OK if indeed you are requesting new work, otherwise get someone who is as capable of project managment as industrial design.

It can be not too exciting if you are using him on a piece meal basis, as you sort of describe. Darting in and out of project as you integrate new component, then do it agin 3 months later. If he's so experienced, that should be common practice and knows how to deal with it. But, creatively speaking, it's disheartening to only be able to contribute piece meal when the raison d'etre of the industrial design profession is to develop coherent solution.

To your original question, yes some industrial designers work like this. So do some engineers, marketing, executives. In all cases, not successfully, often followed by a clean up person. A generalization, it's often the industrial designer's who went immediately or too soon into consulting, not gaining enough understanding of myriad business processes and scenarios different at each company. A bit of the school design studio individualistic idealism.

Also, this type of industrial design can be very frustrating. High value added scientific instrumentation have very complicated electro-mechanical-chemical-optical interfaces, have unusual cost drivers, shifting technical priorities, and just about always the industrial design function and / or deliverables becomes partially corrupted at the altar of cost. As always, coherence, to achieve simplicity can be very difficult.

And then some engineer comes along and says but we just need a sketch...