westheimer1234
Structural
i know i would. i find engineering one of the most unstable jobs. i work for EPC companies and they always mass hire and mass lay off.
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would you discourage your child to take up engineering in college? 20
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Twoballcane
Mechanical
I have to admit that Engineering specifically Mechanical is part of who I am, so I do have a love for this field. For my kids, if they have the aptitude and interest, I would not stop them. However, I would push them towards other "new" fields of study such as Bio and Green Engineering vs the classic four.
For salary, compared to the other four year degrees, engineering has the highest start salaries and if you strive for it, you can get into the top 10% of the experienced salary range which gets into the six figures. I know this is true, because I am just a hair from it because I specialize, however, like I said in another post, I am now trying to ride out and doge lay off.
For the kids who are on that doctor and Lawyer track and find out that they don't like it or just could not convert to medical and law school and end up just with a bachelors in bio and political sci, they would be making less than engineers.
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
For salary, compared to the other four year degrees, engineering has the highest start salaries and if you strive for it, you can get into the top 10% of the experienced salary range which gets into the six figures. I know this is true, because I am just a hair from it because I specialize, however, like I said in another post, I am now trying to ride out and doge lay off.
For the kids who are on that doctor and Lawyer track and find out that they don't like it or just could not convert to medical and law school and end up just with a bachelors in bio and political sci, they would be making less than engineers.
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
There's a big difference between not liking your current job/recent jobs or even your specialty/field and not liking Engineering as a career. Seems some above have mixed up the two. My current job sucks in many ways, my last one with hindsight and though I didn't fully appreciate it at the time, was awesome - at least by comparrison.
I too believe the "do what makes you happy" can be taken the wrong way or applied incorrectly. Fundamentally (unless you inherited a bunch of money or are willing to sponge off society etc.) you work to earn a living. Now once you've reached a pay scale you can live on, then fine, making sure it's something you like is only logical.
However, taking a career you theoretically enjoy, but can't get by on the pay so that worries about that make you less happy, is just stupid.
Don't get me wrong, many of us could probably get by and be happy in the right job on less than we realize. I'm not saying be a complete wage slave if you can help it. However, either end of the extreme, be it working a job you hate just for the money even though you could live on less, or a job you supposedly love but with pay so low that worries about where your next meal will come from make you miserable, doesn't make sense to me.
HgTX, thanks for the link, I was going to try and find that.
The only careers I might discourage my kids from are ones I think they'd be completely miserable in/bad at, or that wouldn't pay enough/have good ROI on the college degree. Even then, I'd try to do it in a way that they discovered this by themselves rather than somehow coercing them.
Not sure how much we'll help our kids financially. My wife completely funded her self in the US, so kind of thinks they can do the same though she's hoping they'll do some prerequisites in the local community college so we can at least provide board & lodging. I did it in the UK so the government subsidized it (even a small grant that almost paid my rent - I was too young for the good old days when you could live off what they gave) and my parents helped a little (food money more or less) and my other costs were covered by government loans and summer jobs, so I'm a bit more inclined to help them a bit. However, I'm not sure I'd pay for out of state basket weaving or something.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies: What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
I too believe the "do what makes you happy" can be taken the wrong way or applied incorrectly. Fundamentally (unless you inherited a bunch of money or are willing to sponge off society etc.) you work to earn a living. Now once you've reached a pay scale you can live on, then fine, making sure it's something you like is only logical.
However, taking a career you theoretically enjoy, but can't get by on the pay so that worries about that make you less happy, is just stupid.
Don't get me wrong, many of us could probably get by and be happy in the right job on less than we realize. I'm not saying be a complete wage slave if you can help it. However, either end of the extreme, be it working a job you hate just for the money even though you could live on less, or a job you supposedly love but with pay so low that worries about where your next meal will come from make you miserable, doesn't make sense to me.
HgTX, thanks for the link, I was going to try and find that.
The only careers I might discourage my kids from are ones I think they'd be completely miserable in/bad at, or that wouldn't pay enough/have good ROI on the college degree. Even then, I'd try to do it in a way that they discovered this by themselves rather than somehow coercing them.
Not sure how much we'll help our kids financially. My wife completely funded her self in the US, so kind of thinks they can do the same though she's hoping they'll do some prerequisites in the local community college so we can at least provide board & lodging. I did it in the UK so the government subsidized it (even a small grant that almost paid my rent - I was too young for the good old days when you could live off what they gave) and my parents helped a little (food money more or less) and my other costs were covered by government loans and summer jobs, so I'm a bit more inclined to help them a bit. However, I'm not sure I'd pay for out of state basket weaving or something.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies: What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
Bester2,
Some companies will allow kids from areas like where you gre up. Just have to ask.
Chris
SolidWorks 09, CATIA V5
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
Some companies will allow kids from areas like where you gre up. Just have to ask.
Chris
SolidWorks 09, CATIA V5
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
ctopher,
I know that now but had no idea then. When I was in college I worked at the university and next door to me was the office of recruitment and retention. They went to underprivileged schools to talk about engineering and related fields. Which is great. I am sure programs like that will help future generations.
Kenat,
I think you are correct that maybe people like engineering but do not like the position they are in. That is my theory, I think I would like engineering, I liked engineering school, and have liked some parts of every job that I have been at, but currently hate what I do every day. But 4 jobs in 4 years (I have been at my current place 2 years) have made me scarred to try and leave especially with the economy. No matter what, unless I get laid off, I will make it here one more year. Maybe then I can see if my wife will give me permission to start looking again.
SW 2007 SP 5.0
I know that now but had no idea then. When I was in college I worked at the university and next door to me was the office of recruitment and retention. They went to underprivileged schools to talk about engineering and related fields. Which is great. I am sure programs like that will help future generations.
Kenat,
I think you are correct that maybe people like engineering but do not like the position they are in. That is my theory, I think I would like engineering, I liked engineering school, and have liked some parts of every job that I have been at, but currently hate what I do every day. But 4 jobs in 4 years (I have been at my current place 2 years) have made me scarred to try and leave especially with the economy. No matter what, unless I get laid off, I will make it here one more year. Maybe then I can see if my wife will give me permission to start looking again.
SW 2007 SP 5.0
Well...here's another thing to make engineering less attractive.
A ruling is about to be published from a United States Court of Appeals that prevents the limitation of liability for engineers. Liability can be limited by a corporation, but the personal liability of an engineer cannot be limited.
The attorney who told me about this agreed that it was a bit "a$$ backwards"....he was one of the attorneys in the appeals case, so he knows about the ruling first hand. Apparently the major engineering societies tried unsuccessfully to block this.
This is going to make getting professional liability insurance more difficult, it's going to increase the cost of engineering services and it's going to weed out some engineers (that's maybe a good thing!).
I will try to get a copy of the ruling when it gets published, and post it to the forum.
A ruling is about to be published from a United States Court of Appeals that prevents the limitation of liability for engineers. Liability can be limited by a corporation, but the personal liability of an engineer cannot be limited.
The attorney who told me about this agreed that it was a bit "a$$ backwards"....he was one of the attorneys in the appeals case, so he knows about the ruling first hand. Apparently the major engineering societies tried unsuccessfully to block this.
This is going to make getting professional liability insurance more difficult, it's going to increase the cost of engineering services and it's going to weed out some engineers (that's maybe a good thing!).
I will try to get a copy of the ruling when it gets published, and post it to the forum.
Ron,
It sounds like the ruling is simply reinforcing the position that the State Boards have always taken. The way I read the enabling legislation in the two states where I'm licensed, the regulations already remove business-entity protection from a PE. I don't see the court's opinion as changing individual liability, merely reinforcing the Board position. I don't see how that case will change insurance rates, but it seems that everything always does and the change is always upwards.
David
It sounds like the ruling is simply reinforcing the position that the State Boards have always taken. The way I read the enabling legislation in the two states where I'm licensed, the regulations already remove business-entity protection from a PE. I don't see the court's opinion as changing individual liability, merely reinforcing the Board position. I don't see how that case will change insurance rates, but it seems that everything always does and the change is always upwards.
David
David,
Yes, many states have severed the individual from corporate protection (mine, too!). I believe this ruling makes it more difficult to use a limitation of liability clause in a contract, which is one of the clauses most insurors insist upon. Many states have also limited indemnification clauses.
It seems that the courts are eroding our ability to enter into reasonable and fair contracts. It's a similar tort reform issue that Doctors have faced in their malpractice insurance cases. Fortunately, we do have specific contracts for most of our work, which is different than the implied contracts of the medical profession.
As for raising the insurance rates....all it takes is an excuse, and this probably gives them one.
Ron
Yes, many states have severed the individual from corporate protection (mine, too!). I believe this ruling makes it more difficult to use a limitation of liability clause in a contract, which is one of the clauses most insurors insist upon. Many states have also limited indemnification clauses.
It seems that the courts are eroding our ability to enter into reasonable and fair contracts. It's a similar tort reform issue that Doctors have faced in their malpractice insurance cases. Fortunately, we do have specific contracts for most of our work, which is different than the implied contracts of the medical profession.
As for raising the insurance rates....all it takes is an excuse, and this probably gives them one.
Ron
Your child should pursue the subject they are talented in. It's all about aptitude. I've lost EE jobs, but not for long. I always get hired quickly. I stay at a job for a long time, but with today's economy, even a good worker can get hit.
But the good ones bounce back. The ones always being let go every few years are usually not very good. Engineering attracts many people, some who do not really have enough talent to be an engineer. Add to this that there are many companies willing to hire them because they work for less. A good engineer has the natural ability towards engineering work to start with. They may have occasional layoffs, but they get hired quickly.
Do not be afraid of any profession. The lawyer field is flooded, as is engineering, medical, veterinary medicine, accounting, investment/finance. Many finance jobs are being outsourced. One should choose a field because they have the aptitude, not because it is lucrative. Engr is very appealing to many. But, not all of them really have the talent to do it.
It's all about talent. Your kid should major in what he/she is good at. BR.
But the good ones bounce back. The ones always being let go every few years are usually not very good. Engineering attracts many people, some who do not really have enough talent to be an engineer. Add to this that there are many companies willing to hire them because they work for less. A good engineer has the natural ability towards engineering work to start with. They may have occasional layoffs, but they get hired quickly.
Do not be afraid of any profession. The lawyer field is flooded, as is engineering, medical, veterinary medicine, accounting, investment/finance. Many finance jobs are being outsourced. One should choose a field because they have the aptitude, not because it is lucrative. Engr is very appealing to many. But, not all of them really have the talent to do it.
It's all about talent. Your kid should major in what he/she is good at. BR.
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- #29
Christine74
Mechanical
I asked this exact same question in a previous thread:
-Christine
-Christine
So? Now it is a year later, the economy is a lot different and there are different people reading and responding to the thread.
By the way. If you'll post an eng-tips link like thread731-196487 instead of the url people can navigate to your reference without opening a new browser window.
David
By the way. If you'll post an eng-tips link like thread731-196487 instead of the url people can navigate to your reference without opening a new browser window.
David
My biggest complaint about engineering is that it hard to stay in one place and be successful. If one doesn't get with a major stable company early in their career, then moving frequently is nearly always the case. Event those that are with one company their entire career may be pressured to relocate to get promoted, etc.
In the legal and medical profession, although they have their own issues, most seem to be able to stay put.
In the legal and medical profession, although they have their own issues, most seem to be able to stay put.
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My late response to this thread is because for the last week and a half I have been on a crunch job.
I am a 3rd generation Civil (Structural) Engineer and have been listening to ways to improve the profession since slightly beyond the age of reason. Dad and Grandpa built roads and bridges. Two uncles taught engineering at the local university. I was not pressured into being an engineer - but it was a readily available example.
Through 7 jobs and 6 moves my experience echoes much of what I read above. Although I used to love my job, it has become more of a chore as we have truly become a commodity. Purchasing Agents with liberal arts degrees and more initials after their names than we have buy us like widgets and position us to undercut our competitors.
Companies bring in foreign workers under the phony BS that there are shortages of qualified people here. All of these things work to keep our wages down.
ASCE is pushing their agenda of 30+ credits beyond the BS (degree) to qualify for the PE. Funny I remember family discussions about limiting enrollments, like medical schools, to imporve the wages of 1960 era engineers, and I doubt that anything has improved.
My only consolation is that one son went into computers and the other is studying to be a Physicist. He has not yet decided on teaching or research, but my suggestion is work on making golf balls fly straighter and farther and he would probably make more money and have more fun.
Now that the job is printed and out the door it's back to reduced hours and nothing constructive to do.
GJC
I am a 3rd generation Civil (Structural) Engineer and have been listening to ways to improve the profession since slightly beyond the age of reason. Dad and Grandpa built roads and bridges. Two uncles taught engineering at the local university. I was not pressured into being an engineer - but it was a readily available example.
Through 7 jobs and 6 moves my experience echoes much of what I read above. Although I used to love my job, it has become more of a chore as we have truly become a commodity. Purchasing Agents with liberal arts degrees and more initials after their names than we have buy us like widgets and position us to undercut our competitors.
Companies bring in foreign workers under the phony BS that there are shortages of qualified people here. All of these things work to keep our wages down.
ASCE is pushing their agenda of 30+ credits beyond the BS (degree) to qualify for the PE. Funny I remember family discussions about limiting enrollments, like medical schools, to imporve the wages of 1960 era engineers, and I doubt that anything has improved.
My only consolation is that one son went into computers and the other is studying to be a Physicist. He has not yet decided on teaching or research, but my suggestion is work on making golf balls fly straighter and farther and he would probably make more money and have more fun.
Now that the job is printed and out the door it's back to reduced hours and nothing constructive to do.
GJC
Christine74's thread started almost 2 yrs ago, and reflects optimism and satisfaction of a boom time. This thread reflects pessimism and dissatisfaction of a bust time.
Neither is something to base your long-term future actions upon. In the height of the boom times, there were calls to become investment bankers, and now we know how that turned out, generating armies of laid off financial workers. People with short memories have forgotten that after the Vietnam War, the recession was particularly bad for technical people, to the point where PhDs were driving cabs to make a living.
And, again, we're in a grass is greener mode, thinking that doctors are not commodities. Really? The most common job in medicine is Family Practice, wherein if you can't manage to see a minimum of 4 patients an hour, you're a slacker. And if you don't keep up your quota, you will get fired. Does this really sound like a cush job? And so they get maybe $130K in LA, but they work their tails off to do that. My wife is easily putting in 60-hr weeks to do that, which means she's really only getting the equivalent of about $87K per year of normal hours.
And yes, there are doctors that make a lot more, but, for a surgeon, you have to go through a 7-year residency and a 2-year fellowship before you can get those big bucks. And, you can only do that for a limited time, until your eyesight and manual dexterity give out.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Neither is something to base your long-term future actions upon. In the height of the boom times, there were calls to become investment bankers, and now we know how that turned out, generating armies of laid off financial workers. People with short memories have forgotten that after the Vietnam War, the recession was particularly bad for technical people, to the point where PhDs were driving cabs to make a living.
And, again, we're in a grass is greener mode, thinking that doctors are not commodities. Really? The most common job in medicine is Family Practice, wherein if you can't manage to see a minimum of 4 patients an hour, you're a slacker. And if you don't keep up your quota, you will get fired. Does this really sound like a cush job? And so they get maybe $130K in LA, but they work their tails off to do that. My wife is easily putting in 60-hr weeks to do that, which means she's really only getting the equivalent of about $87K per year of normal hours.
And yes, there are doctors that make a lot more, but, for a surgeon, you have to go through a 7-year residency and a 2-year fellowship before you can get those big bucks. And, you can only do that for a limited time, until your eyesight and manual dexterity give out.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
One engr early in my career came from a medical family. I asked why he didn't pursue med, and he said that he didn't like sick people.
I advised my daughter to go education; long vacations, etc. She went engineering because the eng students in first year science courses weren't any smarter than her. She did well; never made less than me after grad. Reached six figures very quickly.
I always encourage the med field. We need more doctors and nurses and less lawyers. [My in-laws include more than a few lawyers.]
I advised my daughter to go education; long vacations, etc. She went engineering because the eng students in first year science courses weren't any smarter than her. She did well; never made less than me after grad. Reached six figures very quickly.
I always encourage the med field. We need more doctors and nurses and less lawyers. [My in-laws include more than a few lawyers.]
No I would not discourage anyone from entering into college for engineering.... however, some people disagree and have their own opinions.....it is not just a job,.... it is an experience.
FAQ731-376
FAQ731-376
westheimer:
The key question is if the engineering is unstable for jobs, what do you consider a stable field?
Be it engineering, sports, medicine,law or hair dressing, you need to be good at what you do. Otherwise any field you go into would feel unstable!
Rafiq Bulsara
The key question is if the engineering is unstable for jobs, what do you consider a stable field?
Be it engineering, sports, medicine,law or hair dressing, you need to be good at what you do. Otherwise any field you go into would feel unstable!
Rafiq Bulsara
The link comes up with a shortened version. Here's the entire episode:
TTFN
FAQ731-376
TTFN
FAQ731-376
In response to the original question:
In a word, yes.
Engineers are not given a level or respect by society that is even remotely commensurate with their contribution to it. Anyone who chooses engineering as a profession is condemned to a career life time full of disillusionment over how poorly engineers are regarded by their clients, by their employers and by the public at large.
If you want stable work, find a position in corporate accounting. (Always 100% busy and 0% billable.)
That said, there is a certain magic in being able to make reasonably good money by solving equations and drawing pictures that turn into devices that work and do wonderful things. The "science" of engineering is very rewarding in that regard.
Regards,
SNORGY.
In a word, yes.
Engineers are not given a level or respect by society that is even remotely commensurate with their contribution to it. Anyone who chooses engineering as a profession is condemned to a career life time full of disillusionment over how poorly engineers are regarded by their clients, by their employers and by the public at large.
If you want stable work, find a position in corporate accounting. (Always 100% busy and 0% billable.)
That said, there is a certain magic in being able to make reasonably good money by solving equations and drawing pictures that turn into devices that work and do wonderful things. The "science" of engineering is very rewarding in that regard.
Regards,
SNORGY.
Don't be mislead by my previous posts. I agree with Snorgy.
Engineering is very rewarding. I've done fine and enjoy it immensely, I just see a societal shift that is not going to be kind to the engineering profession. As IRstuff noted, it is similar in other professions.
I left the larger corporate engineering world for a small consulting practice (my own) and I'm glad I did. I enjoy respect from my clients and colleagues....there's not much more that one could ask. In the larger corporate structure, technical decisions were increasingly being forced to bend to financial dictates. I could get on a tall soap box about how that isn't right and there's no place for it in the engineering profession. Even many state laws require that that you stick with a problem to solution in spite of profit. Our ethics support that.
Yes, I recognize the need to make a profit in a business. The two perspectives are not mutually exclusive. I prove that every day.
As much as I support anything my children want to pursue, I have an obligation as a parent to give them the reality of the profession as I see it. I'm not directing them from an unlearned, external personal opinion. I've held local, state, and national positions in engineering societies and have over 30 years of experience. I have seen our profession decline first hand.
Engineering is very rewarding. I've done fine and enjoy it immensely, I just see a societal shift that is not going to be kind to the engineering profession. As IRstuff noted, it is similar in other professions.
I left the larger corporate engineering world for a small consulting practice (my own) and I'm glad I did. I enjoy respect from my clients and colleagues....there's not much more that one could ask. In the larger corporate structure, technical decisions were increasingly being forced to bend to financial dictates. I could get on a tall soap box about how that isn't right and there's no place for it in the engineering profession. Even many state laws require that that you stick with a problem to solution in spite of profit. Our ethics support that.
Yes, I recognize the need to make a profit in a business. The two perspectives are not mutually exclusive. I prove that every day.
As much as I support anything my children want to pursue, I have an obligation as a parent to give them the reality of the profession as I see it. I'm not directing them from an unlearned, external personal opinion. I've held local, state, and national positions in engineering societies and have over 30 years of experience. I have seen our profession decline first hand.
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