Yet more career advice 5

[ISUMechEng]

Hi all,

I've been reading here for a while, but this is my first post. First I want to say, I find it fascinating reading, learning, and remembering all the knowledge that's on these forums.

Ok, so I've been out of college for a year. I received my bachelors in Mechanical Engineering. This January I started my Masters in Engineering. It's a fairly general program, my emphasis are Management and Design.

The last 7 months, I've been working for a large defense contractor. My roll has been a Manufacturing Engineer. I'm 2nd shift "support" so I'm covering 3 times the area that my first shift counterparts do; however, because of the extreme laziness and lack of direction from management in my department, I feel that I am accomplishing much more than most in my areas.

Problem is, I hate my job. I'm a glorified baby sitter. I listen to people complain, I solve petty problems, I order tools, etc. The one cool part of my job is the weld area that I cover. I get to play with the robots, investigate fixturing issues, etc. It's basically a real manufacturing roll rather than the babysitting roll I play in the assembly areas.

So, like I said, my department is in shambles. Upper management has noticed this and is creating a 2nd level of management between the roll I am in and my current supervisor and I'm contemplating whether I should apply or not. I've come up with 3 options in my head, tell me what you guys think:

1) Apply for the promotion. I've already created some documents and put some ideas to paper of how I would manage my team to get better results than our group has in the past. I know some members of management (ones that would have no deciding factor of who gets the job) can see that I'm not from the same mold of most people in my department and appreciate my hardwork and dedication and think I have a very good chance at getting the position. I know I could do a good job, the only thing I'm worried about is i don't know if I want to get into management so soon. I like the technical stuff and want to keep learning, even though I eventually want to get into management. And no, I honestly don't think I'd keep learning too much even if I was in this management roll because I'd be managing the sub assembly areas.

2) My 1st shift counterpart in the weld area is basically a shoe in for the promotion and one of the few people that actually deserve. I really respect him and he is a great guy to learn under. If and when, he gets this promotion, I'm planning on being promoted to 1st shift manufacturing engineer in only the weld area. I'd get to ditch my babysitting/assembly area roles and focus on an area I enjoy more.

3) I decided some time ago that I would stay in my current position until July of 2011 and at that point, apply within the company to get into a Design Eng role. I want to stay in my current role till July so I can help the 1st shift engineer in the weld area I respect so much finish out a very important project / production ramp up. If I couldn't get a design role within the company, I'm not against relocating to find a design role elsewhere.

This is very long, and if anyone read all this and still cares, kudos. Or, I'm sorry. But what do you think? I definitely want to get into management someday, but I don't want to be a clueless manager. I want to be sure I have good experiences to pull from. The weld area is great, but I think I'd still want some design experience sometime in the near future.

I guess my question boils down to, is "real" engineering experience (not assembly, line balancing, and tool ordering) more important in the long run than early management experience?

Thanks.

 

[msquared48]

How can you direct other engineers down the right path if you have not walked it yourself?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[SLTA]

Trust me, you need more engineering experience before you move to management. Well, let's say that would likely make you a better manager.

I think option 2 sounds the best - assuming your 1st shift guy gets the promotion, option 3 won't really be anything other than continuing to be annoyed. Does the upper management agree that you'll move up if the other guy does?

Good luck.

 

[MikeHalloran]

It's >all< "real" engineering.

All of the experience you get, and all of the education you get, is important.
... but not like you think.

Roughly half of what you learn, and half of what you experience, is trash.

Nobody knows right now which half that is.

In future decades, when you can figure out which half is which and apply it, you'll know.


I spent a year on the Dark Side.
I hated it, not least because my fate was determined by other people, in higher and lower ranks. ...also because I had to do things to subordinates that they didn't deserve.




Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[ISUMechEng]

I think it's assumed I'll move up if he gets the promotion because I'm the only other guy in the company that knows the robots and the complete manufacturing process.

I know the idea of management so soon seems ridiculous, but the job responsibilities of my department are not complex at all. There's just a lot of the responsibilities we need to complete. We need direction, we need directives, and we need a plan. None of which any of these other guys have ever had to work towards. Right now, everyone is going in their own direction. We have lots of resources in our department and aren't using any of them to their full capacity.

Also, it might be worth mentioning, I'm not some 22 year old kid. I worked as a welder for some years after high school and before returning to college.

 

[msquared48]

OK. So, what do you want to do?

Do you want to manage or design?

What is the current marketshare and backlog of the company?

Do you see the company marketshare increasing?

How stable is the company?

Do you have confidence in its current management?

Do you see the technology changing faster than you can adapt?

Do you have a training program in place for the workers?

What is the route to the top, is it doable with your background, and do you see yourself there?

Do you even want to be there?



Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[a2mfk]

ROLE dammit, ROLE!!!

sorry, OCD....

 

[Qshake]

First and foremost - there is no reason for engineers to use the adage - "I earned an engineering degree not an English degree". Simply put you were educated and that includes reading, writing along with arithmatic.

As to management, ask yourself if your ready to answer questions in a confident way. Are you ready to lead by earning respect and show your cadre that you're not just another bump on the log of management? If you are not in a position to instill confidence in the people you oversee and if your not in a position to make a difference for those people, this is a diaster waiting to blow. Once you make the wrong decision or hesitate and or let others answer questions for you, you will lose your staff's confidence and that is a horrible thing. Once upper management discovers this it has one of two choices: demote you or fire you.

If you can honestly say you're ready after answering those questions then go for it!





Regards,
Qshake

Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.

 

[vc66]

I don't know where people get the notion that you need to be a godsend Engineer to be an Engineering manager. Sometimes (in my experiences, most of the time), having a lot of engineering experience makes you a short-sighted, know-it-all, micro-manager. The best engineering manager I ever had was a woman who had a business degree. She let the Engineers handle the engineering, and trusted us enough to back us up to upper management. She also knew how to negotiate, which she did on our behalf in the form of great reviews and raises to those who deserved it.

I know obviously that this is not the case always, and in some situations engineering knowledge is necessary for certain types of managers. However, there are a lot of other skills necessary in becoming a manager which have nothing to do with engineering knowledge. Don't forget about those.

V

 

[IRstuff]

roll: "to make someone or something move forward by turning them over and over"

Could be loosely interpreted as what a manager might do... ;-)

TTFN

FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize

 

[controlsdude]

Best engineering managers I knew were the grey haired ones who was last person standing in the department. Then that person was the manager when that department ramped up again and he/she was the manager. Or what I am saying they saw the ups and downs on how companies work and it did not phase them when it happened again in the manager role.

That person could identify what you were going thru since they walked it themselves.

Don't apply to management too soon, I think you would waste all that schooling you went thru and all you are going to be is a glorified babysitter, I mean manager.

 

[GregLocock]

vc66, yes, absolutely. I've noticed that a lot of young engineers on eng-tips expect their managers to be technical mentors, yet my experience is that the best managers I've had give me resources and vague direction and pretty much leave me to it.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[bridgebuster]

"First and foremost - there is no reason for engineers to use the adage - "I earned an engineering degree not an English degree". Simply put you were educated and that includes reading, writing along with arithmatic."

A little bit of trivia: General Douglas MacArthur's first assignment was with the Corps of Engineers, supervising construction. He believed that the most important coursework for any person in any field was English. Dwight Eisenhower was first in his class in English at West Point; that's why MacArthur chose him as his assistant.

 

[IRstuff]

We often joke, amongst us systems engineers, that we should have all had minors in English. The typical specification document is often rife with inconsistencies and ambiguities, and sometimes loaded with intentially vague requirements. From this mishmash come the allocated and derived requirements. Without a thorough understanding of the written requirements and how the specification is structured and intended, you would have no idea what is actually required, and what you must actually prove to be compliant with.

Very often, in this site, we find people posting about a contracted development effort for which they don't even have the relevant secondary requirements. How silly is that? You bid a job without even knowing what the detailed requirements are? You could be in for a 50% overrun and not even know it until it's time to do design verification and testing, and you finally get the relevant docs and realize that you need to spend double or triple your test budget to actually do the testing. This is a recipe for disaster and a limited future at your company.

TTFN

FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize

 

[DerPumpeMeister]

The best managers I have had have been the ones who performed my job at some point in their careers. They knew the details of what I was doing and I feel it made them better managers. I feel I am a better manager having performed the work of those I manage. Of course, a managerial position requires an additional set of skills that engineering alone may not provide.

I would go with your option 2 at this point in your career. If you have found someone who is good and you respect, take the opportunity to learn. You will move up to management soon enough.

How to Find, Get and Keep an Engineering Job

http://www.EngineeringGuideBook.com

 

[plasgears]

I had the most fun when I was working on less than classical engineering tasks in a multiplicity of tasks. Field engineering and project engineering are like this. Embrace the environment and thrive in it.

 

[SiliconeAurora]

vc66, I think you got lucky. Most "buisness degree" managers I've had experience with assume that engineering talent can make miracles happen and essentially break the laws of physics to meet a business schedule. My very first internship had a guy like this. Allegedly great at running the financial side of the company, but all of our conversations tended to go something like this:

Him: "How is project X going?"
Me: "Well, it's for a customer that's demanded a much higher spec than our normal. Our normal procedures are pretty much useless and we're having some trouble meeting the requirements. Been working on it for the past few days solid."
Him: "So, no parts then?"
Me: "No."
Him: "I promised them a sample by today. So we really need to have something to ship out tomorrow morning. Work late and get it done."
Me: "Okay, well, even if we solved all of the current issues, our process requires a day postcure. So the earliest I can get you a sample is tomorrow afternoon."
Him: "Did you hear me? I said I promised him it would ship tomorrow morning. You're an engineer - engineer something, damnit!"
Me: "Um. I'll head back over and keep working on it."

And this happened a lot. In time, I took it as less a respect for our ability to get stuff done and more a way to use it against us for impractical deadlines that didn't leave enough time for development work. Thankfully it was only an intership.

On the other hand, my current boss has had a few decades of engineering experience. I can't judge how well he handles the business end of things (mostly because I'm not involved in it) but he's very understand about the physical limitations of the engineering and production aspects of the job. Which isn't to say I have it too easy , but at least he knows my legitimate problems are real.

 

[guizmy]

My modest contribution would be a reference to the movie 'one million dollar baby!'(try to google it!)

Basically I would take reasonnable challenge to be on safe side.
If for any reason, including a dysfunction in the organization, you get the opportunity to do more than what you are prepared for, you simply run the risk to take a fatal hit. That Can happen during a meeting with Clients, consultants, very knowleadgable people etc.

While if you put yourself in a position to experience only reasonnable failure when it arise, so you know theses are painful moments but you could survive and get stronger.

So in my view, is better to akcnowledge the true value of the experience and expertise and play safe, especially in Engineering where you cannot fool anyone. So I tried to apply this philosophy of the Movie I mentionned to my career and adopt a low profile and probe/measure my self before talking to Experts by asking my self: in case of faillure would it be fatal for me or I could still survive?

 

[Vicbowling]

In my opinion you should apply for the new management position yourself because if you aren't promoted you will have two levels of lazy management above you and you (the underling are going to be made the scapegoat for your department's problems. As management you probably won't be able to change much but you at least will have a better shot at it.

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