Hello all, I am a recent CE grad from WVU. I realize that the path I take here and now will decide my future in the years to come and I am trying to get all the advice I can. I am currently "working" with the government. I put in quotations because the word working implies that I am actually doing something...which I am not, nor is hardly anyone else on Uncle Sam's payroll. I go ask for work to do and I still don't get any. I am VERY unsatisfied with my current job. There is too much BS going on here and not enough engineering and I hate the thought of tax dollars paying me to play around on the internet. I need to switch jobs, but I don't want to leave this one until I have a good one lined up. I worked a few summers in land development and I really enjoyed it. I think that I'd like to return to that discipline. One thing I've kind of been looking for is a smaller firm that has a surveying department. I enjoy surveying and, if I could find an employer open to the idea, I'd like to work towards professional licensure as a surveyor as well as an engineer. The reason for that is that although I haven't thought that far ahead, I'd like to keep the option of one day opening my own practice up open and I think that having both would be a big plus. I guess what I am asking for is some experienced people's opinions of that plan. Would having a surveyor's license be worth the time and effort in my field and would it be a significant advantage to my overall performance as a land development engineer?
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Young Engineer Needs Help 2
- Thread starter WVce
- Start date
In a growing economy, joint RLS and PE licensure and experience in land development is a great small business model. In a shrinking economy, when land development work dries up, you would need other skills to fall back on perhaps, but surveying could be that ticket - as a small business surveying sub-consultant on government projects.
civilperson
Structural
Surveying is the most fun part of civil engineering projects, (but low pay rate). A registered land surveyor is required to file plats of new sub-divisions so your future plans need to include a LS.
civilman72
Civil/Environmental
Pursuing your PLS and PE is certainly a mighty goal to achieve and will allow you lots of opportunities if you do become a business owner. But obtaining both licensures is very time consuming and I think you will struggle to obtain both and still maintain your expertise in both fields. As most PEs will tell you, on the day you obtain your PE you do-not automatically become "all-knowing." My engineering knowledge and grasp on the big picture has grown over the last six years (after getting my PE) as much as it did in the four years prior to obtaining my PE. If I got my PE, and then spent the next few years of my career pursuing experience in land surveying, it would be very difficult to still maintain and grow my knowledge as a PE.
Check with your State License Board, but in my State (Colorado) I was blown away to find out that even though I have a four-year engineering degree it would actually take me more years of experience to be able to sit for my PLS (six years) than it would be for me to qualify to sit for my PE (four years). I too thought about obtaining both licensures until I found out about this requirement. It also should be noted that you can not obtain double experience even if you work in both fields at the same job (which I actually did at my first job). So, if you want to qualify for both, you need ten years of total working experience, which is a lot of time.
I've worked with older engineers who have their PE and PLS, but that is because way back in the day the License Boards thought if you could do engineering, you had the knowledge to also do surveying, so they made it much easier for them to obtain their PLS. Now Boards are actually discouraging this because they feel that each discipline has become so specialized that it will be difficult to be licensed in both and still "keep up," so they changed their requirements to be much more difficult to do both.
While it is a lofty goal, I have not met one engineer under the age of 45 who has both, which is probably attributable to all the points I mentioned above.
On another note, if you are not feeling fulfilled at your current job, go get another job that is more demanding (you will probably need to go to the private side) and don't look back. We need more PEs, times-a-wasting!
Good luck.
Check with your State License Board, but in my State (Colorado) I was blown away to find out that even though I have a four-year engineering degree it would actually take me more years of experience to be able to sit for my PLS (six years) than it would be for me to qualify to sit for my PE (four years). I too thought about obtaining both licensures until I found out about this requirement. It also should be noted that you can not obtain double experience even if you work in both fields at the same job (which I actually did at my first job). So, if you want to qualify for both, you need ten years of total working experience, which is a lot of time.
I've worked with older engineers who have their PE and PLS, but that is because way back in the day the License Boards thought if you could do engineering, you had the knowledge to also do surveying, so they made it much easier for them to obtain their PLS. Now Boards are actually discouraging this because they feel that each discipline has become so specialized that it will be difficult to be licensed in both and still "keep up," so they changed their requirements to be much more difficult to do both.
While it is a lofty goal, I have not met one engineer under the age of 45 who has both, which is probably attributable to all the points I mentioned above.
On another note, if you are not feeling fulfilled at your current job, go get another job that is more demanding (you will probably need to go to the private side) and don't look back. We need more PEs, times-a-wasting!
Good luck.
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1
- #5
Very interesting post. I have had a similar experience to yours. When I was still in school and shortly after graduation, I worked for the federal government and had similar observations as yours. It was not until I went to work for a private engineering consultant that I realized how much different (and more rewarding) it was in the private sector.
I have worked with both large multi-office firms and small one-office firms. I found the best experiences for a young person to be with a smaller firm who could offer a more diverse work experience including both engineering design and surveying & mapping. The larger firms tend to "pigeon-hole" young engineers, though there can be exceptions. So I think you have a good overall perception of the way things work.
Civil engineering covers such a broad range of expertise that you can easily fall into one area and become enamored with it and never experience anything else. There's nothing wrong with that. You can become so knowledgable in one area that others seek out your expertise.
My advice though, is as you already suspected: To get as much diverse experience as you can (while still relatively young) before making a decision on the rest of your career. Be adamant about involvement in a variety of assignments, both civil and surveying, but also in business aspects (just asking questions is worthwhile knowledge). Maybe this is a 2-4 year process or longer. A lot depends on your individual circumstances.
Dual licensure both as PE and LS is attainable and is very desrirable if your career plan is to someday start your own firm. The two are intimately intertwined and having experience and knowledge in both areas obviously allows you to see a broader picture. It is definitely worthwhile to understand and experience both.
As far as "surveying" giving a significant advantage in your evolution as a land development consultant goes, it probably is mostly impressive to a bank when asking for a small business loan or starter loan, but not as significant (or necessary) if your plan is to climb the ladder of a large national firm. Having the "big picture" understanding does help you see through the BS. Also, if you start a firm, you can always hire experts (either employees or subconsultants) to handle the diversity of needs.
One last thought: some view dual licensure (PE & LS) as, "Jack of all Trades, Master of None" but don't let that get in the way of what you personally want to do. Follow your heart.
I have worked with both large multi-office firms and small one-office firms. I found the best experiences for a young person to be with a smaller firm who could offer a more diverse work experience including both engineering design and surveying & mapping. The larger firms tend to "pigeon-hole" young engineers, though there can be exceptions. So I think you have a good overall perception of the way things work.
Civil engineering covers such a broad range of expertise that you can easily fall into one area and become enamored with it and never experience anything else. There's nothing wrong with that. You can become so knowledgable in one area that others seek out your expertise.
My advice though, is as you already suspected: To get as much diverse experience as you can (while still relatively young) before making a decision on the rest of your career. Be adamant about involvement in a variety of assignments, both civil and surveying, but also in business aspects (just asking questions is worthwhile knowledge). Maybe this is a 2-4 year process or longer. A lot depends on your individual circumstances.
Dual licensure both as PE and LS is attainable and is very desrirable if your career plan is to someday start your own firm. The two are intimately intertwined and having experience and knowledge in both areas obviously allows you to see a broader picture. It is definitely worthwhile to understand and experience both.
As far as "surveying" giving a significant advantage in your evolution as a land development consultant goes, it probably is mostly impressive to a bank when asking for a small business loan or starter loan, but not as significant (or necessary) if your plan is to climb the ladder of a large national firm. Having the "big picture" understanding does help you see through the BS. Also, if you start a firm, you can always hire experts (either employees or subconsultants) to handle the diversity of needs.
One last thought: some view dual licensure (PE & LS) as, "Jack of all Trades, Master of None" but don't let that get in the way of what you personally want to do. Follow your heart.
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- #6
Nice posts so far.
However, to develop your person in social aspects also is needed. One very valuable habit to have is assoicate with other engineers outside of the company or gov't. This is done by many means, such as going to seminars, attending local government meetings and participating. But, one of the best ways to meet others is at ASCE and Mat'l Society of Professional Engineer's meetings.
My former boss did it this way and soon developed enough contats locally that he became encouraged to open his own office. From there there was no stopping.
However, in your case, it may open leads that are not advertised, etc. the least it can do is broaden your outlook on engineering.
I would not knock where you are. You can do everything possible to make your superiors notice that you have potential. I'll bet they have annual reviews and you want to look great at each. Never say "I was not hired for that". Are there any extra courses you can take at night? Hey, how about a Master's? Start before everyone in the morning and stay on and be the last to go home. Come in on Saturday if possible. Minimize those coffee breaks and pester your boss to give you more to do. Show how you can improve what is going on. Read up on related subjects, enlarge your library, subscribe to ENR and all society publications. It's up to you and no one else. You might be surprised what you can do right there.
However, to develop your person in social aspects also is needed. One very valuable habit to have is assoicate with other engineers outside of the company or gov't. This is done by many means, such as going to seminars, attending local government meetings and participating. But, one of the best ways to meet others is at ASCE and Mat'l Society of Professional Engineer's meetings.
My former boss did it this way and soon developed enough contats locally that he became encouraged to open his own office. From there there was no stopping.
However, in your case, it may open leads that are not advertised, etc. the least it can do is broaden your outlook on engineering.
I would not knock where you are. You can do everything possible to make your superiors notice that you have potential. I'll bet they have annual reviews and you want to look great at each. Never say "I was not hired for that". Are there any extra courses you can take at night? Hey, how about a Master's? Start before everyone in the morning and stay on and be the last to go home. Come in on Saturday if possible. Minimize those coffee breaks and pester your boss to give you more to do. Show how you can improve what is going on. Read up on related subjects, enlarge your library, subscribe to ENR and all society publications. It's up to you and no one else. You might be surprised what you can do right there.
theCorkster
Geotechnical
You will have to make your experience, whether with the federal government or on the private side. And when you are young, perceived opportunities do not present often enough, and usually you (within your expectations) cannot progress quickly enough.
It is excellent advise to work on a post-graduate degree while working with the government. Some segments of government even have programs (and funding) to send staff to get their advanced degrees - carefully check out what resources are available for you. My post-government experience is that you will never receive the amount of training that you will within the government.
And to keep you entertained and growing where you are now, figure out how to get work off your boss' desk, and on to yours. Believe me, he will take notice - he will either feed you, or he won't. If he does, you win, if he doesn't, you win as well, by keeping him on notice that your available - it also keeps you motivated to finding a boss that will recognize and feed your intersts!
GoldDredger
Civil/Environmental
- Jan 16, 2008
- 172
- 0
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If I were starting back out again, I would have gone into the military as a civil engineer and officer. It is good experience, and right now I'd be 3 years away from a retirement and pension the rest of my life...with 30 good years left in private sector to make money on top of that.
Or, like the guy above says, work on the advanced degree while working for the government. I'd go for the MBA, cause after 15 years in design, you'll want to get out of it...hehehe.
Good luck though. Don't feel too bad, all things considered, it's a good problem to have.
Or, like the guy above says, work on the advanced degree while working for the government. I'd go for the MBA, cause after 15 years in design, you'll want to get out of it...hehehe.
Good luck though. Don't feel too bad, all things considered, it's a good problem to have.
bencraddock
Structural
I'd second a lot of what has already been said by others...
I started out in government work too but became jaded by the politics. Moved to a small LD firm and it was great for the varied experience. I figured out that I liked LD project management but had to go to a bigger LD firm to find the work I wanted. Working for the government can offer some good work experience because if you're sharp and a hard worker you can really stand out - provided someone gives you some work to do.
But to directly answer your question - I believe that having your PLS would not be worth the effort and would not be a 'significant' advantage in doing LD work. Having good surveying experience and understanding surveying work is definitely helpful but I don't think being licensed would be that much of an advantage. Even if you start your own small firm, I think that doing your own surveying would unnecessarily lengthen the time it takes for you to get a project done and spread you way too thin. I'd recommend having concentrating your practice on either surveying or engineering in order to stay on top of your game and be most efficient. Team with a good local surveyor or hire one to work for you instead.
I started out in government work too but became jaded by the politics. Moved to a small LD firm and it was great for the varied experience. I figured out that I liked LD project management but had to go to a bigger LD firm to find the work I wanted. Working for the government can offer some good work experience because if you're sharp and a hard worker you can really stand out - provided someone gives you some work to do.
But to directly answer your question - I believe that having your PLS would not be worth the effort and would not be a 'significant' advantage in doing LD work. Having good surveying experience and understanding surveying work is definitely helpful but I don't think being licensed would be that much of an advantage. Even if you start your own small firm, I think that doing your own surveying would unnecessarily lengthen the time it takes for you to get a project done and spread you way too thin. I'd recommend having concentrating your practice on either surveying or engineering in order to stay on top of your game and be most efficient. Team with a good local surveyor or hire one to work for you instead.
Nothing wrong with having two different and related skills. I'm both a certified professional geologist and professional engineer in the Commonwealth of Virginia. My only thought on land survey is that's becomming such a commodity business that pursuing that side of the land development business is different. It does make for interesting field work though. . . .
Good luck. Most importantly you need to find a job that you like and feel rewarded in. Sounds like it's time to move on. . . .
fatt-dad, C.P.G., P.E.
¡papá gordo ain’t no madre flaca!
Good luck. Most importantly you need to find a job that you like and feel rewarded in. Sounds like it's time to move on. . . .
fatt-dad, C.P.G., P.E.
¡papá gordo ain’t no madre flaca!
WVCE,
I have recently passed my LS in VA and have been a PE for a couple of years all with a BS in CE. The road has been rough for me. Set out a plan on what you want to accomplish and don't sway from it. You may have to change companies a few times in order to accomplish your goals. Best thing to remember is the number of licensed surveyors to engineers. In Virginia that differential is very large. An persons with both licenses under the age of 45 is almost minute. I am personally the only PE with a LS that I know of under the age of 50.
I have recently passed my LS in VA and have been a PE for a couple of years all with a BS in CE. The road has been rough for me. Set out a plan on what you want to accomplish and don't sway from it. You may have to change companies a few times in order to accomplish your goals. Best thing to remember is the number of licensed surveyors to engineers. In Virginia that differential is very large. An persons with both licenses under the age of 45 is almost minute. I am personally the only PE with a LS that I know of under the age of 50.
I know several, but none of them is using both and none are in land development... All are functioning as either agency or public works consulting engineers but not as surveyors. So other than something to add to your resume title, not all that useful in my opinion.
BelspringKen
Civil/Environmental
I think this is a great idea. I know one guy who is under 40 who has LS and PE. Get the LSIT and EIT completed, then get the LS seal. As noted, you may have to switch firms, but it will be valuable for you and the firms for you to have both.
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