Cannot get details on this % Butterfly valve 4

• Apr 12, 2023

• #2

LittleInch

Petroleum

Mar 27, 2013

21,663

It's a butterfly valve equipped with a spring return / ESD actuator.

Looks like an on off valve to me and with that size spring quite a large DP, but is on /off.

What sort of "details" are you looking for?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

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• Apr 12, 2023

• #3

Latexman

Chemical

Sep 24, 2003

6,933

Your photos are focused on the actuator. Focus on the valve in the line, and you'll learn more details, like Make and Model.

Good Luck,
Latexman

 

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• Apr 12, 2023

• Thread starter
• #4

Iomcube

Chemical

Dec 11, 2015

187

Thanks for replying guys.
This is a %valve not an on/off valve. Its on Cl2 line that operates at about 200mbarG (~3ton/hr at 85C coming out of electrolyser)

I want details regarding working principle of such a gigantic actuator. In my previous proj3cts of similar kind I have not observed such. What is the need of an ESD actuator?

 

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• Apr 12, 2023

• #5

LittleInch

Petroleum

Mar 27, 2013

21,663

IOMcube

Is there some other valve in line which is actually doing the control because that looks very much like a ESD valve to me - Pneumatic spring return as written on the actuator itself is, IME, not used as a variable control. Too difficult to get the air pressure vs the spring resistance, plus a butterfly valve isn't great at control.

Got a P&ID of this system?

This is a fail safe ESD actuator which closes under spring power if the air supply fails or the signal holding the valve open goes to 0V during a process trip or ESD initiation.

It looks ridiculously big for 200mbar and suspect someone found an old one somewhere and just bolted it on.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

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• Apr 12, 2023

• #6

Latexman

Chemical

Sep 24, 2003

6,933

That is a big, honking actuator for a 3 psi dP. I suspect LI is right; it came out of the bone yard.

Good Luck,
Latexman

 

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• Apr 12, 2023

• #7

LittleInch

Petroleum

Mar 27, 2013

21,663

The biggest one I ever ordered was for an 18" 70 bar ball valve which closed in 3 seconds and it wasn't as big as that one....

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

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• Apr 12, 2023

• Thread starter
• #8

Iomcube

Chemical

Dec 11, 2015

187

Guys, give a day I will get pic of an On / Off valve which is similar to this & downstream of this valve. In the meantime I have made a simplified pdf of P&ID. I have annotated / stripped it to keep it simple ...

 

 https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=1861098e-c4ac-471f-8e77-0e68d008ef9a&file=Gas+Elz.pdf

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• Apr 12, 2023

• #9

Latexman

Chemical

Sep 24, 2003

6,933

Iomcube,

When I click the Gas Elz.pdf, I get nothing. I tried PC and Phone, nothing on both.

Good Luck,
Latexman

 

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• Apr 12, 2023

1
• #10

bcd

Mechanical

Sep 27, 2002

518

Valve appears to be a rubber lined, double-flanged, concentric butterfly.

I am not so convinced this is an ESD valve. I see some components in the instrumentation that indicate it may be a control valve. There is a filter regulator. A volume booster that is fed from what looks like a positioner (blue colored item). the positioner looks like it may have a pressure gauge on it. Top picture shows what could be a feedback linkage from the actuator to the positioner.

Single-acting actuators are common for control valves as the response are more stable than double-acting.

This very well may be a butterfly control valve. Just need the name or a picture of the tag on the blue covered item in the assembly. That will prove if it is ESD or control. Cannot tell if it is ESD or control from just the actuator alone.

 

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• Apr 12, 2023

• Thread starter
• #11

Iomcube

Chemical

Dec 11, 2015

187

@ bcd (Mechanical)
I will get the picture by tomorrow but you can go through the P&ID ...the tag / signals indicate its a pressure control valve

@ Latexman (Chemical)
uploaded PDF can be found here:

https://www.mediafire.com/file/8siki0bir8dgjws/Gas%2BElz.pdf/file

 

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• Apr 12, 2023

1
• #12

LittleInch

Petroleum

Mar 27, 2013

21,663

I can see that there may be some sort of positioner feedback alright, but the size of the units still looks massive compared to the required torque for a butterfly valve.

Needs a FO capability though so some sort of spring action is required.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

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• Apr 12, 2023

• #13

Latexman

Chemical

Sep 24, 2003

6,933

Got it now. Thanks. It's low pressure, so the CV is big. Because the CV is big, it's a butterfly, because they are cheap. Not the best at fine control, which may not be needed in this case, but they are definately cheap. Looking forward to CV picture. Get the nameplate.

Good Luck,
Latexman

 

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• Apr 12, 2023

1
• #14

GBTorpenhow

Mechanical

Jan 26, 2022

242

Iomcube said:

I want details regarding working principle of such a gigantic actuator.

Click to expand...

As others have stated what you have is a single acting spring return pneumatic piston actuator. Bottom cylinder contains the piston, top cylinder contains a big spring that provides the motive force for fail closed (or open) operation. % open is dictated by the pressure under the piston, via a positioner for modulation or a simple solenoid for on/off. Bettis G Series is a well known example if you are looking for more detailed representative/example vendor information.

 

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• Apr 13, 2023

• Thread starter
• #15

Iomcube

Chemical

Dec 11, 2015

187

@ Latexman (Chemical)
It's low pressure, so the CV is big. << Correct
I am uploading additional images. The text was all Chinese so I need to translate

This is the positioner image refers to %valve (PV216)

This image refers to on/off valve (ZV219) which is at downstream of above valve ...similar looking

The left side spec sheet refers to %valve (PV216) while the right refers to on/off valve (ZV219)
(My image resolution was downgraded so I am using external server)

https://www.mediafire.com/file/gr44k81t6xahq9l/specs2.jpg/file

In the spec sheets above I found no reference for ESD actuator stuff

 

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• Apr 13, 2023

• #16

LittleInch

Petroleum

Mar 27, 2013

21,663

I think the issue looking at the data sheet is that the valve is rated for 10bar differential (1.0 Mpa) and the actuator may have been sized according to that. I don't know what the opening and closing torque figure is for those sorts of valves, but it must be quite significant to get them to use such a big actuator.

The ESD bit is dependant on how you use it and how the control equipment is certified for operation. If you specify a fail closed or open valve then you need spring power to do this if the air supply fails. These can be straightforward on/off isolation valves, but physically there is very little between that and the same valve designated as an ESD valve. Normally ESD valves just run on a different control circuit and can't be used for process isolation or normal operation, but that's not actually written in a code AFAIK.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

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• Apr 13, 2023

• Thread starter
• #17

Iomcube

Chemical

Dec 11, 2015

187

@ LittleInch (Petroleum)
I think the issue looking at the data sheet is that the valve is rated for 10bar differential (1.0 Mpa)

I am afraid such differential doesn't exist in electrolyzer industry.
According to dicument:
Inlet P 0.2 barg
Outlet P 0.16 barg
Delta P 40 mbar

 

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• Apr 13, 2023

• #18

LittleInch

Petroleum

Mar 27, 2013

21,663

I can see that, and whilst the valve data sheet seems to say those numbers, my strong suspicion is that they don't actually use them and have just given you a valve and actuator which is rated for 10 bar differential.

The money they save on not having to design every valve must be more than the cost of that huge actuator which isn't actually needed, but then they probably ordered 10,000 of them all the same size.

Or they had an order cancelled and had a load of actuators in the back yard they wanted to use up.

Either way, my guess is that the actuator fitted is about 10 times too big for what is needed and uses 10 times as much air, but can only assume the cost was comparable to other more compact units?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

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• Apr 13, 2023

• Thread starter
• #19

Iomcube

Chemical

Dec 11, 2015

187

@ LittleInch (Petroleum)
Equal percentage valve characteristics can be achieved using butterfly control valve? I thought these show only linear characteristic.

Secondly I have learned that butterfly useful control is b/w 20 - 60% valve opening. Is my experiences correct? Bcz currently I am calculating what %open my valve will be at 3.6tonne/hr of saturated Cl2. I have graphs of water quantity in saturated Cl2 at different T&P

 

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• Apr 13, 2023

1
• #20

Latexman

Chemical

Sep 24, 2003

6,933

Looks like roughly 0-60% open is equal %, and 80-100% open is linear. Can you get the Cv vs. % open curve for your specific valve(s)? Equipment file? Mnfr?

Good Luck,
Latexman

 

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