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Hydrogen electrolysis aka green hydrogen 4

GregLocock

GregLocock

Automotive
Apr 10, 2001
23,449
A great white hope at least in Japan, Australia, UK and Germany is green hydrogen, that is hydrogen made from water by electrolysis, using renewable power. This has often been proposed, I know 2 people actually working in that space, but it falls over at step 1, as the expensive electrodes erode.

Anyway, a proposed plant in Germany is not going ahead
Other hydrogen threads thread1618-506266 thread1618-512391


Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
I'm just not a fan of the idea of breaking down water, which is rather important to the planet, into hydrogen and oxygen on a massive scale.
 
@Lionel ... Why not ? when you combust the H2 you get the water back.

@Greg ... "great white hope" ?? ... geeze, you Ozies ! (I can say that, I are one)

As for erosion of the electrodes ... you could reclaim the metal from solution ... by electrolysis (and yes I'm aware of the laws of thermo-dynamics, so I know this is ludicrous).

And where does the electricity to run the process come from ? ... only "green" sources, or nasty FF sources too. And thus the nonsense of "green" H2 ...

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.
 
The issue I suspect with the German scheme is just that they haven't worked out yet who pays for it. You end up with about 70% of the energy you start with plus loads of spare oxygen no one seems to do anything with.

Who pays for that shortfall??

That's where it falls over at the moment.

The H2 hype and push is all coming from companies who own has transport networks. No surprise there.

I think it will have its place but needs the money to be in the right place.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
 
...as long as they don't use fossil fuel for power.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik
 
You know they will use FF for power.
 
Many initial H2 plants use CH4, with CO2 sequestration. Again, no one seems to have worked out who is going to pay for the energy losses of 30 to 40%.

Sorry I should say how, who is you and me.

All the electrolysis plants are wind or hydro powered.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
 
do you mean there's a dedicated connection to the wind farm, as an example ? "surely" the plants are pulling power for the main grid ?

And how to keep the H2 in liquid form ?
pressure ? ... wait till one of these tanks explodes ... we had a conniption when a liquid propane tank exploded ... "bomb"s in residential neighbourhoods ...
temperature ? ... and the power to run the refrigeration ?

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.
 
The big Australian proposals tend to be colocated with wind/solar farms in remote places. That way you can put them in places without powerlines, and where land is cheap. These all seem to have stalled as well. The remaining ones are small research projects-there are many, paid for by me. There is an ongoing project to build a hydrogen hub on the Hunter coast, 55MW. That'll use grid electricity, which in NSW is 70% coal. Joined up thinking is an Australian speciality.
Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
Why not ? when you combust the H2 you get the water back.
Click to expand...

Sure, the stuff that gets burned. What about the gas lost to leaks and oops, when does it become water again?
 
rb1957,

Very few people are looking seriously at liquid Hydrogen as a storage system.

It's all about gas storage at high pressure or using Ammonia or some other chemical system to transport it. And no one has yet worked out a commercial way to turn ammonia back into gaseous H2...

If H2 escapes it just floats off into the universe....

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
 
I like the concept of this thread. Not because I like the idea of hydrogen powered cars. But, because it addresses an important concept in de-carbonizing that I frequently ignore.

I tend to focus on Electrical Utilities and the power grid. But, how much freight is transported using electrical trains or trucks? Very little. How much commercial travel or commuting is done using electric vehicles? Very little.

The truth is that refined gasoline is just about the most densely packed source of power in terms of energy per weight that we're going to be able to come up with. It's very, very efficient.

Rather than focusing on trying to turn convert all of our vehicles to electric power, I prefer other options. Hybrid cars are brilliant. They address all the issues. Consumers like them, they're fuel efficient, they're affordable and have all the features consumers want. They have a way better range than electric and they are so much better gas mileage than traditional ICE cars.

 
Well in USA, I don't know, but the majority of the European rail network is electrified.
USA though is 1% apparently
The length and remoteness of much of the lines in the US and the relatively low speed / lack of long distance passenger trains probably means it is not even vaguely cost effective.

I will give you the PHEV especially seem to be to me one of the better mixes of technologies, especially with a decent sized battery and motor. so the majority of round town / commuting is electric, but longer trips or simply not worrying about running out of power could be undertaken as well.

I drove one recently and on the power meter display there was an arrow (which moved according to battery charge) indicating how much acceleration you could get before the ICE kicked in. Very useful.



Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
 
LittleInch said:
I drove one recently and on the power meter display there was an arrow (which moved according to battery charge) indicating how much acceleration you could get before the ICE kicked in. Very useful.
Click to expand...

I rented a hybrid (Ford Fusion) for a couple of weeks back in 2017. I loved that car, it was really cool and I got incredible mileage with it. Every time you used the brakes, it would tell you how efficient you were with re-capturing the energy with the regenerative braking vs traditional.

I've said it before, I really want my next car to be a hybrid. It just makes so much more sense to me.
 
Having had one, I hate PHEVs ... two powertrains. Happier with my EV now.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.
 
rb1957,
Why did you hate it? Extra maintenance cost?
 
Well, there is the two-powertrain thing. The petrol engine still needs maintenance.

I opened the hood of my Chevy Bolt yesterday for the first time in months. Filled up the washer fluid in preparation for winter.

The car has been in the shop 4 times (in 42,xxx km).
- Winter tires on
- Back to summer tires
- The seat belt pretensioner recall
- And winter tires on again, last week.

Most hassle-free car I've owned.
 
I figure it's the worst of both worlds. Why have two complete drive trains ? Initially I thought this a positive, and it worked well enough ... around town a 40km battery could manage most short trips, and the gas engine was good for long trips. For a while I thought about increasing the battery size (I mean, if I've got a complete electric drain train and re-charge system, why not ?) ... sure there'd be plenty of compromises ... loss of trunk space, maybe rear seat ?, carry around the mechanical drive (if it couldn't easily be divorced from the electrical drive ) ... but all the mod-shops said "no way". Then the damned thing crapped out on me, so I dumped it.

Now I have a full EV ... and don't plan to use it on long trips. Not that it won't work, but having to stop every 3-4 hrs for an hour would be a pain. And powering from home (7c/kwhr) I reckon it'll cost about $450/year for my commute.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.
 
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