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Ethics question about a PE putting unsubstantiated opinions in emails to my clients 1

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Jinxr

Jinxr

Mechanical
Nov 1, 2005
9
I'm a sales engineer for the top company in our market. We have the best reputation and in my 10 years with them, I've never had a situation like this come up.

I was working on a design for one of my consultants and he asked me to coordinate with a local ME (PE) for a few of the design criteria. I have no beef with this engineer and was shocked to get this response from him. I wasn't even asking for a submittal review. And for the record, the owner (a worldwide hotel brand) specs our brand and design, and it's my understanding he is to follow their spec and use our equipment. So that makes his response even more baffling.

My initial email:

Hi (PE)!

(consultant) said you were working on this one so I wanted to coordinate the design with you. Attached is what I have worked up based on (consultant)’s layout and input. I am wondering where the fans will be so I can make sure we have enough static pressure. Will these be on a first floor roof or will they go all the way up or maybe out of the side wall?


His response:

I have included (architect) in this email as he was my client on the design. I do not believe we have been retained to do any submittal review at this time.

Additionally, and most importantly, I will not approve a (my brand) under any circumstances. I have had a number of these on previous projects with extremely poor results. In my opinion (my brand) has a faulty control design but in any case I will not approve this unit.


The local architect is someone he added, and he copied the two guys that work for my consultant on his reply.

I have zero history of any issues, especially regarding our controls with him. I have sold equipment on countless jobs he's been involved in. I've visited his office and provided lunch 'n learns. He has rarely spec'd our equipment, and that is his right. I have gone to the owners that were struggling with costs and provided refined designs that are more energy efficient and will work much better in my experience, and saved them a lot of money. So maybe I've unintentionally offended him at some point? I can't think of anything that I've done to do that. It's common for owners to not follow the designs completely.

I was pretty taken back. That's quite a statement to make based on his opinion with zero data to back it up.

Any thoughts on this situation? I've already responded, but curious what others think or might do about it. Never seen anything like this in my industry. It's clear he is sending a message to the architect and the owner with this, and could be attempting to cost me a lot of money on sales.
 
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Sounds like a problem.
One thing- ask him for the specifics of the job(s) that had problems, and try to confirm if there really was a problem that you're not aware of, or really not a problem at all. You may be able to confirm with other parties on those past jobs as to what went on.
Possibly schedule a sit-down meeting with concerned parties. He can tell you to go jump in the lake, but can't very well tell the owners that also.
Regardless, it's hard for us get a clear picture of a dispute when we just hear one side of it.
If he actually is being dishonest, there are legal avenues, but whether they are practical to pursue is a different issue.

Long ago, I contacted the purchasing department of a large industrial client. My employer already worked for that client at other facilities, but not the facility in question. So I filled out the requested qualification info, sent it in, and the purchasing agent told me "Great, we have the info on file, when any inquiries come up, we'll send them to you." Six months later, no inquiries, so I touched base again, same result, and ever saw an inquiry one. Conclusion: With that purchasing agent, evidently you had to do SOMETHING else other than just complete the forms to actually get on their bid list. What that is, no clue. But yeah, not everybody out there is honest, and there's not always good approaches there, either.

 
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I mean obviously the easiest idea is to talk to him about and see what his issues have been and whatnot. I wouldn't call his response "unethical" - if he's been burned in the past by a certain type of units, or works with clients that don't like a certain of unit, it's definitely his/the clients prerogative to select the units they believe will work best.

You don't mention anything about believing he may have "made a deal" with a competitor to choose those units and get a kickback or something. So I'm not sure what the ethical issue you describe is...outside of someone not liking your brand lol.
 
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I can't tell how much ethics is here, but the guy comes across as a jerk. If he had problems with your company/products in the past either getting them sorted out or just dropping it would be reasonable. It doesn't appear you involved his client in your request, so I don't know why he included his client in his response. Moreover, the response appears intended to cause you to suffer. Had he made this comment in a phone call to the client, you'd be left in the dark. This is a paper trail to disparagement and harassment; probably not enough to sue him for. It is certainly unprofessional on his part. It should raise questions for his client that he would do that - airing a possible problem like that.
 
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I have included (architect) in this email as he was my client on the design. I do not believe we have been retained to do any submittal review at this time
Click to expand...

Doesn't seem like anyone is asking for his approval of anything.
 
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I've been on the opposite side of this, having had to avoid blacklisted suppliers due to quality, legal, and other issues. Purchasing managers have always wanted us to politely assure the supplier that we will be in contact when needed bc realistically, management and corporate cultures change and issues are resolved.

While I believe the email was needlessly burning a bridge and therefore counterproductive, I dont see an ethical issue. He's stating an opinion and welcome to it.
 
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Thank you guys for the input. Good to have 3rd party neutral opinions to help when it can feel personal.

When brining up ethics, I was talking about for a PE, since they are held to a higher standard, specifically note 5 from our state's rulebook. Wondering if this is worthy of submitting a complaint to the board. He's not a big engineer, pretty small firm, but does a lot of work. And he's telling this stuff to a clients that are known globally and worth billions of dollars.

As someone mentioned, it does seem like disparagement, especially due to the fact that nobody, even by his own admission, was requesting or paying him for his opinion or approval. Completely unsolicited.

IMG_8224_uuozkf.png


My response went like this...


That’s a serious statement (PE). Do you have examples? Did you ever try looping me or anyone on the (my company) team in to help out when you’ve had these issues? I can’t recall hearing about anything like this from your team. In fact, you’ve designed the X restaurants and are working on (third X) right now. We just met with the owner yesterday to work up a design. It’ll be our 3rd system with them and she said just yesterday she loves working with us and our equipment. They choose our design over the spec and have been happy thus far.

I’d love the opportunity to make things right with you. I can honestly say I’ve never had anyone, let alone an engineer, say this about (my brand) in my 10 years here. (My employee), who worked for a (competitor) rep for 9 years before starting with us even said he’s never heard anything like this either. And he was our competitor. They have sold and still sell a lot of our equipment even though they are the (competitor's) rep. We’re quite taken back and treating this seriously, as you have presented a very strong negative opinion to other clients of ours in the industry in this email chain.

 
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This isn't something you complain to a professional board about. Many people have preferences based on their experience and would pick Goulds over Flowserve, Trane over Carrier, Mitsubishi over whoever, etc (or vice versa). As long as everything is meeting specifications and requirements, someone has to make a decision and that person's experience comes into play in that decision.

Maybe the guy is just a grouchy old fart. But it doesn't sound like hes doing anything unethical and honestly it's a little weird to me that your initial thought is to run to the board because someone doesn't like your brand.
 
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He didnt express a public opinion and the opinion appears to be based on experience with your employer's products, so the highlighted section doesnt apply.

IMHO your response is equally as counterproductive as his email, and rather petty. No manufacturer will ever have an entire product line that is best for every customer, so there will always be someone who prefers another brand. Nobody is under any obligation to notify you of product issues, nor share their opinions or the reasons for them. Its great if customers are willing to share but the only thing that can change opinions are product improvements, not your/others' opinions or discussing past projects. Rather than being defensive and confrontational, your response should've been limited to asking if there was any special testing, improvements, or other means of helping him gain confidence in your employer's products.
 
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You need specifics of his problem so you can address it to improve it. If there are no grounds for improvement, then you need him to correct his original statements to whomever he made them to. Beyond this, it could get a little tricky, legally.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik
 
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Thanks guys. The thing is, it's likely he's getting kickbacks from our competitor. I thought it was more obvious and didn't want to sway opinions before getting responses. That's on me I probably should have mentioned it. Out in the open they are constantly wining and dining engineers. Taking them on trips. Lots of gifts during the holidays. So I've always questioned what else goes on in private. As a company, and personally, none of those things are something we do. I'm so busy I wouldn't have time to do it even if I wanted.

But that's where I question the ethics of his actions. I reached out to some colleagues that used to work with him and that's their opinion too.

My response could be counteractive. I can see that. It was a purposely elevated response to an aggressive and unprovoked action. But I tried to keep the door open by saying I would love the opportunity to make it right and provided actual facts to counter his opinions, putting the ball in his court to backup his claims.

Was it the right decision? We'll see. I've gotten calls from two of the other parties copied and they were not nice about their opinions of what the engineer did. One even questioned if he's getting something for denying our products.

 
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If the opinion were solicited, then it might be possible.

If unsolicited, then the most likely scenarios are
> the product sucks
> they're getting renumeration to slam the product

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
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He could have a formal or handshake exclusivity agreement with another manufacturer, there's nothing uncommon or unethical about it. Gifts and commissions are typically limited by an employer's conflict of interest policy, not a legal requirement, to ensure employee decisions drive financial gain for the employer rather than the employee. If he's self-employed or has a liberal employer then he's welcome to whatever suppliers are willing to give.
 
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There's a pretty big difference between touting a product vs. badmouthing a competitor, regardless of the renumeration.

A company that renumerates for badmouthing is a company to be avoided.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
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He's the owner of the engineering firm.
 
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Just got a response from him. The only example he provided was on a job my company had nothing to do with. The client purchased used equipment that wasn't even designed for the space.

So irritating to get your reputation tarnished when it's not even your equipment
 
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Seems like you're taking this a bit too personally. It's not fair but people get jaded to brands/equipment types/whatever all the time after swapping out something without doing the calcs or reviewing it.

He's a grouchy guy or whatever and that's that, just move on. It doesn't sound like he's doing anything egregiously over the line.
 
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