Plant where I work is reviewing the requirements for new projects. We've been having problems with HVAC equipment failure soon after the standard 1 year warranty expires. Would adding a 5 year part and labor warranty requirement to the specifications for new projects be reasonable? I understand that it would come at a cost, but wonder if this is a requirement that most vendors could accommodate.
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5 year warranty for HVAC equipment - reasonable?
- Thread starter PoorRod
- Start date
Manufacturers will typically NEVER allow a warranty to exceed 2 years. If they do, you will be looking at huge cost to do so, either broken out or hidden in original price; you will pay one way or another.
What will typically happen if you put in 5-yr warranty, a hungry contractor will "promise" the warranty and cross his fingers; it won't be backed up by the manufacturer.
A warranty is for "defects in materials and/or workmanship" in the original manufacturing of the product. If your problems don't manifest themselves until after 12 months, then they were likely NOT due to either of these causes. They were likely due to bad installation, poor application of product, or #1 reason: shabby operations, i.e. not maintaining properly and passing blame off on manufacturer.
It will be EXTREMELY hard (and rare) to prove defects in materials or workmanship with a product that ran fine for 2,3, or even 4 years and then failed. If it ran that long satisfactorily, then it is close to all the proof the manufacturer needs to disclaim the warranty.
Just sayin'......
What will typically happen if you put in 5-yr warranty, a hungry contractor will "promise" the warranty and cross his fingers; it won't be backed up by the manufacturer.
A warranty is for "defects in materials and/or workmanship" in the original manufacturing of the product. If your problems don't manifest themselves until after 12 months, then they were likely NOT due to either of these causes. They were likely due to bad installation, poor application of product, or #1 reason: shabby operations, i.e. not maintaining properly and passing blame off on manufacturer.
It will be EXTREMELY hard (and rare) to prove defects in materials or workmanship with a product that ran fine for 2,3, or even 4 years and then failed. If it ran that long satisfactorily, then it is close to all the proof the manufacturer needs to disclaim the warranty.
Just sayin'......
TJOrlowski
Mechanical
What sort of HVAC equipment are you talking about?
If the equipment in question has no moving parts (AHU fin coils, shell & tube or plate/frame heat exchangers), then as DubMac pointed out, defects in materials or workmanship would show up pretty quickly (less than 12 months) after start-up. Equipment with no moving parts that fails more than a year after start-up is usually the victim of the root cause of failure, not the root cause itself (although it's usually where you find the problem).
Solutions? Buy heavier duty equipment (thicker tubes, materials that will last longer). Look at the conditions to which the equipment is being subjected to see if it can be approved (replace bad controls/pumps/traps/valves, improve maintenance on peripheral equipment). Was the equipment the best (not cheapest) design/selection for the application in the first place? Are you following the manufacturer's recommended PMI plans?
If the equipment you're talking about has moving parts, well then, just disregard everything above
-TJ Orlowski
If the equipment in question has no moving parts (AHU fin coils, shell & tube or plate/frame heat exchangers), then as DubMac pointed out, defects in materials or workmanship would show up pretty quickly (less than 12 months) after start-up. Equipment with no moving parts that fails more than a year after start-up is usually the victim of the root cause of failure, not the root cause itself (although it's usually where you find the problem).
Solutions? Buy heavier duty equipment (thicker tubes, materials that will last longer). Look at the conditions to which the equipment is being subjected to see if it can be approved (replace bad controls/pumps/traps/valves, improve maintenance on peripheral equipment). Was the equipment the best (not cheapest) design/selection for the application in the first place? Are you following the manufacturer's recommended PMI plans?
If the equipment you're talking about has moving parts, well then, just disregard everything above
-TJ Orlowski
KiwiMace
Mechanical
- Feb 2, 2006
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Commonly with central plant and some other instances, an extended maintenance contract will be bid with the tender, usually extending out to 5 years. It is not a factory warranty, but the contractor will maintain the equipment for the duration.
The intent is to get a good deal on the specialised maintenance of the plant by including it with the tender.
The reality is that the local factory service agent needs to be sub-contracted or nominated into this deal or the maintenance could be dubious and your average contractor might fold or just not perform.
You can often negotiate long term full parts and service deals with the manufacturers under a leasing arrangement. None or reduced capital upfront usually a feature but much higher NPV over the term.
The intent is to get a good deal on the specialised maintenance of the plant by including it with the tender.
The reality is that the local factory service agent needs to be sub-contracted or nominated into this deal or the maintenance could be dubious and your average contractor might fold or just not perform.
You can often negotiate long term full parts and service deals with the manufacturers under a leasing arrangement. None or reduced capital upfront usually a feature but much higher NPV over the term.
- Thread starter
- #5
Thanks for the replies. While I can think of one instance where it was clearly a material or manufacturing defect, the maintenance program we have is certainly lacking and will make it easier to deny a warranty claim. Probably a better use of resources to improve maintenance than buy a warranty which may not be that useful when it comes time for a warranty call.
Not unsusual at all - Check the proposed warranty periods in masterspecs, you will see that they propose much more than one year warranty for most products.
Major products come with even 10-year warranties all the time.
I specify boilers/HX's and chillers with 10 years, AHU's with 5-years and no one complains.
compressors bear a standard 5-year, geothermal bears a standard 25-year warranty, etc.
The trick is to enforce it during shop drawing review. Ask for teh warranty fine print and check against your specs.
When it is an expensive item, or a large project, manufacturers will battle for the job and eat the warranty cost.
Major products come with even 10-year warranties all the time.
I specify boilers/HX's and chillers with 10 years, AHU's with 5-years and no one complains.
compressors bear a standard 5-year, geothermal bears a standard 25-year warranty, etc.
The trick is to enforce it during shop drawing review. Ask for teh warranty fine print and check against your specs.
When it is an expensive item, or a large project, manufacturers will battle for the job and eat the warranty cost.
ChrisConley
Mechanical
I usually check with suppliers on what the cost of the extended warranty is... and what it covers. I had the unpleasant task once of dealing with a manufacturer (rhymes with fork) that had a $17 elbow fail on a large air cooled chiller. They replaced the elbow, but the lost refrigerant was not covered on the warranty. The cost of the replacement refrigerant was a couple of orders of magnitude greater than the cost of the part.
So, check on what you're getting with your warranty, and what it is costing.
So, check on what you're getting with your warranty, and what it is costing.
mauricestoker
Mechanical
If you don't fund and manage the O&M I doubt that a 5 year or 25 year warranty will help you. I would recommend resourcing O&M as opposed to extended warranty. Improved O&M would also probably save you energy money and extend equipment life.
I've been using 5 year warranties for compressors and chillers, but would extend that if the O&M program here was not so good. A good O&M program will also help the engineers in follow-on and figuring out what worked well, and what was design by service ticket. If design screws up, the shops are present to ridicule and mock the engineers. If the equipment is not maintained, the engineers get to go to the shops and questions their lineage and mental health.
I've been using 5 year warranties for compressors and chillers, but would extend that if the O&M program here was not so good. A good O&M program will also help the engineers in follow-on and figuring out what worked well, and what was design by service ticket. If design screws up, the shops are present to ridicule and mock the engineers. If the equipment is not maintained, the engineers get to go to the shops and questions their lineage and mental health.
The equipment we install commercial or residential up to 5 tons can have a 10 year parts and labor from the manufacturer cost is an additional 400-500 per unit.
On anything commercial 5+tons would be put on contract and becomes very expensive and bidding is a nightmare, plus your awarded contractor normally bails on the warranty after installment.
Not on paper anywhere, just the way it normally happens since he has to bid so cheap to get award.
On anything commercial 5+tons would be put on contract and becomes very expensive and bidding is a nightmare, plus your awarded contractor normally bails on the warranty after installment.
Not on paper anywhere, just the way it normally happens since he has to bid so cheap to get award.
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