9/11 Structural Engineer's poll 19

[WARose]

A former colleague of mine who is a structural engineer (now retired and with apparently too much time on his hands ) discusses various conspiracy theories on the net. One of them is the 9/11 theory that holds that the buildings that fell on that day did so due to a controlled demolition. (A theory he feels is “nonsense”.)

You've probably heard followers of this theory called “Truthers” (or worse). In any case, aside from telling my friend that he is/was apparently a member of the CIA (and trying to say he wasn't even a structural engineer), apparently another angle of argument is to say that the profession is somehow afraid to talk about it (noting a lack of support in journals, etc) or that my friend somehow doesn't know what the profession talks about. That got me wondering how much this is discussed beyond my (and his) experience. So the question I have as sort of a poll for structural engineers:

Is the controlled demo theory something that is a regular topic of conversation with your colleagues?

AND (if the answer to the above question is “yes”) Do you feel compelled to view it one way or the other?

Speaking for myself, I cannot think of a single time it has come up (except in conversations with my retired friend mentioned earlier). I've certainly discussed the failures on that day with other structural engineers as an example of progressive collapse. But not much beyond that.

However, public awareness on the topic (I would call it misinformation) seems to have done nothing but grow over the years......and will likely grow more in the years to come.....so I thought I'd ask fellow structural engineers for their thoughts and ideas as to be better equipped to answer the public’s concerns in the future.

 

[IRstuff]

The bigger challenge with the conspiracy theories is to what end?

Precipitating a war with people with a penchant for suicide bombing and general fanaticism doesn't seem like a plausible goal.

And unless you're one to believe that the the Illuminati or some other group are actually running the world, the probability of achieving any particular desired outcome is very low, so where's the return on investment?

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[IRstuff]

Although, I do suppose that it's quite odd that these guys haven't even come close to anything similar in the last 16 years. That just seems really surprising, given how vulnerable much of our infrastructure is. The more complex something is, the easier it is to gum up the works. I can think of a number of things that would be reasonably spectacular, but would involve much in the way of equipment or planning.

Given how leaky our borders are, it's unclear to me why all sorts of odds and ends haven't snuck their way into the country. Moreover, there are lots of supplies that are already in-country that could suborned into lethal objects.

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[MacGruber22]

To what end, indeed. But, that is the kind of response from someone who isn't a thrill seeker in that department. Conspiracy theorists live in the moment of the argument; enjoying the tactics of deflection and purposeful confusion. It is fun to be ornery and a contrarian for some people. The end game doesn't ever come to fruition, because it doesn't matter.

"It is imperative Cunth doesn't get his hands on those codes."

 

[WARose]

[blue](IRstuff)[/blue]
The bigger challenge with the conspiracy theories is to what end?

Precipitating a war with people with a penchant for suicide bombing and general fanaticism doesn't seem like a plausible goal.

The explanation I have typically heard is to perpetuate American global hegemony (and secure resources) by getting us into several wars in the Middle East. Frequently cited as the smoking gun for this plan are documents by PNAC [Project for the New American Century] written years in advance. (Some of which call for regime change in Iraq.)

Obviously the theory has a few holes in it.....one of the main ones being the government didn't claim that a single hijacker's nation of origin was Iraq. So if that was the plan.....it was poorly executed.

But your question "....to what end?" is very applicable to conspiracy theorists themselves. The fact of the matter is: quite a few of them I have run into over the years (regardless of the particular conspiracy) have a agenda in mind. If you look at everyone they suspect, it is (in fact) people ideologically opposed to their beliefs. So they are starting with a desired outcome and working backwards from there. The goal typically is some sort of political/societal change they want. And these theories serve as some sort of rallying cry/banner for them to that end.

 

[SwinnyGG]

I am all for considered criticism of just about everything- the law, the government, engineering disasters, whatever.

Careful, considerate investigation and analysis is what keeps things like building design, auto and airline safety, and a million other engineering endeavors on a constant path of improvement.

But there eventually becomes a point where the evidence points at a specific chain of events, and further speculation in the face of evidence becomes not only wasted effort, but counter productive.


With regard to the conspiracy, none of us will ever know who knew what or at what time. It is entirely possible that some government employee at some level knew this attack would happen and failed to act, or aided in the conditions that allowed it, or whatever.

But ultimately the political side and the physical events that took place are separate elements. Even if it's found 10 years from now in an email that the director of the CIA planned the whole thing- that does not change the fact that the preponderance of physical evidence points to the fact that planes hit the buildings and the buildings collapsed as a result.

So many conspiracy 'theories' I have heard or read insists that GEORGE BUSH KNEW IT ALL or whatever and that because of that 'fact' it must have been a mythical nuclear warhead in the basement.

 

[drawoh]

The bigger challenge with the conspiracy theories is to what end?

Precipitating a war with people with a penchant for suicide bombing and general fanaticism doesn't seem like a plausible goal.

I like the theory about how they planted the explosives in the WTC when they built it. It is the early seventies, and of course, you must explain to a bunch of architects, engineers and construction workers why they must not under any circumstances, discuss what you are doing. It is so obvious that somebody is going to crash giant airliners into the building, and we need mass carnage, and we need to blame it on the Iraqis.

--
JHG

 

[IRstuff]

The long games are always the best ;-)

One might argue that it was in anticipation that the balance of power in that corner of the Middle East would shift to Iraq, since we allowed the Shah of Iran to be deposed in 1979 and then propped up Saddam as a counter to the Shite ascendency, but knowing full well that Saddam was not that controllable and would need to be deposed through some justifiable pretext. It was certainly clear by the first Gulf War that we had lost control of Saddam, who was hell bent on fighting the Iranians. So, it was around 1991 that WTC 1 and 2 were prepared and set up for what would happen 10 years later.

Sounds like the making of a rousing conspiracy thriller, eh?



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[zeusfaber]

IRStuff,

Was the spelling in that last post on purpose?

A.

 

[IRstuff]

On purpose, in the sense that I knowingly spelled it way, but I had intended the meaning to be for the other spelling.

Nevertheless, it's not necessarily incorrect, since the Iranians were very well equipped by the US during the Shah's reign; we sold them fairly high-end military hardware, since they were ostensibly our surrogates in that region. At the start of their first Gulf War, the Iranians supposedly had a fairly large number of F-4s, F-5s, and F-14s in their force structure. They had just missed out on getting delivery on a large number of US F-16s due order termination because of the revolution.

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[BobbyEngineer007]

All I know those buildings fell at free fall gravity speed with little resistance and 40 stories of reinforce concrete elevator shafts were turn into dust.

 

[hokie66]

Bobby,
What gave you the idea that the elevator shafts were reinforced concrete? These were steel framed structures, including both the exterior and interior walls.

 

[MacGruber22]

BobbyEngineer007,

No need to be bashful or passive. Come out and say what you want to say.



"It is imperative Cunth doesn't get his hands on those codes."

 

[SwinnyGG]

You can't 'know' that the towers fell at 'free fall gravity' speed because they didn't fall at free fall speed.

Watch video, count the seconds. It didn't happen.

 

[IRstuff]

Well, obviously, they faked the video

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[WARose]

[blue](hokie66)[/blue]
What gave you the idea that the elevator shafts were reinforced concrete? These were steel framed structures, including both the exterior and interior walls.

Quite true. This is something the Truthers have been pushing for years. But they have mistaken a sheet rock perimeter as RC walls. (As incredible as that sounds.)

I looked in on an argument once where they [the Truthers] were claiming the elevator shaft(s) in the buildings were (also) hermetically sealed.

Another reason to hope you get to your floor fast.