A 1000 miles trip with data lost on return. Fluke Scopemeter again. 2

[Skogsgurra]

More than 1000 miles, actually.

I am still struggling with my Fluke Scopemeter Series II 190-204 and I have told you about the very limited waveform memory, the problems with the USB stick, the outdated PC software, funny copy-and-paste effects when porting (patching, actually) SW from earlier 2-channel versions to four channels, ground leads coming loose from the probes and other problems. You have seen lots of that already.

But this thing, that happened this week, is so bad that I have a problem believing it myself. I did measurements on a ferry on the Norwegian west coast. Knowing that there are problems with the USB store, I was cautious and stored only the more important measurements and I stored them in internal memory. I had 14 recordings in the scope when I returned home to write a report.

When I got back home, I could only retrieve data from six out of the 14 recordings that I had stored. The bitmaps could all be retrieved - but not the data. I needed to transfer data to FV5 to do zooming, cursor measurements, FFT etcetera. But that is not possible if you do not get the waveform data.

I have been very careful with my comments before and I have had lots of patience with Fluke. But I feel that I have to tell the truth about Fluke Corporation and its oscilloscope division now. There's no competence left any more. As an example, there was a meeting in Stockholm in August 24 where top officers from Fluke, Netherlands were to inform representatives from Scandinavia about the Scopemeter. One guy asked how to compensate the probes. The Fluke officers told him that it is done in software. That little capacitor used to adjust frequency response was unknown to both of the Fluke officers and, since the manual says it is on the probe, they never found it on the BNC connector, where it is in reality.

OK. I have vented now. Look at

http://www.gke.org/pub/files/How reliable is the FLUKE Series II Scopemeter.pdf

There you can see that the problem isn't in the PC program (not this time). It is in the scope itself. When I retrieve a waveform on the scope, I can zoom it if data are available and not if only the bit map is available. That is why there are windows saying that zoom isn't available.

BTW. If you need to educate Fluke salespeople about the probe compensation, it is here:

http://gke.org/pub/files/Using the Scopemeter 190 math function 1.pdf

The compensation is described in the appendix.

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[electricpete]

#1 For once in your life hit "Preview Post" before "Submit Post". ..
...Now clicking on "Preview Post".
Now clicking on "Submit Post".
To quote Staples "THAT WAS EASY".

The reason that I felt compelled to clarify my post was to avoid unnecessary acrimony in view of the fact that some have thus far has shown a propensity to completely misunderstand my meaning. I don’t appreciate your tone.

#2 Reread some of the posts. Gunnar has addressed his perceived "Conflict of interest" to the satisfaction of all of us and (if I remember correctly) even to your satisfaction at one time.

Yes, I raised the question before. And at that time, I gave the benefit of the doubt and felt it was addressed for that thread. Then the Fluke scopemeter complaints kept coming in a predictable way (3 threads with numerous complaints per thread) and it again raised my concern level. For one thing there is no guarantee that everyone who reads this threads reads the other thread (how many times has a google search landed you on an eng-tips thread... it happens to me many times).

You talk about addressing something to my “satisfaction”. I am not particularly interested in being a judge of anyone’s motives and granting them approval based on my judgement. I have suggested a simple one-liner disclosure which allows everyone to draw their own informed conclusions. I certainly did not foresee that such a simple and obvious (?) suggestion made in a polite and respectful manner would meet such a response.

In view of the fact that you judge me to be out of line and apparently feel justified to insult me on that basis, I would suggest that before continuing your tirade you should reread my posts. I would submit that you have completely misunderstood my suggestion and my purpose in this thread.

I have suggested to let this lie until the next thread. I was hoping that time to digest these events would bring some understanding of what it was that I was actually suggesting (it is not painful to include such a one-liner disclosure in each thread where the subject arises, and it brings credit to the poster/author for being forthright).

Gunnar has already fully disclosed his business interests with every single post. It's right there, on the line following his name (signature). It only needs one mouse click to land on his business webpage, where anyone can review his business areas.

One mouse click takes me here:

http://www.gke.org/

The language of that webpage is Swedish. I am impressed that many members speak multiple languages, but Swedish is not one of mine and not the language of the forum. If such disclosures exist and are intended to envelope the criticisms made in these threads on an English forum, then hiding them behind a Swedish-language web page would be tantamount to obscuring contract details with fine print. I’m not by any means saying that’s what happened... the comments in this paragraph are offered soley as an argument to rebut the claim that there already exists some full disclosure by virtue of a web-page link.

There are no grounds for any complaint given the explicit (bolded and underlined) link that anyone with a functioning mouse finger can follow.

In spite of your description “explicit (bolded and underlined)”, it still leads to a Swedish-language website.

If Gunnar had explicitly highlighted the existence of ARCUS and represented it - or even implied it - as being a "competing" product to Fluke's apparently-frustrating gadget, then there might have been complaints about Gunnar "advertising" his product in connection with Fluke's failures. In this event, those complaints would actually have been far more legitimate than this unfounded complaint about "disclosure".

This comment assumes a simplistic view that advertisers can only influence us by saying “A is bad” and “B is good” at the same time and same place. Advertisers can be far more subtle and it is certainly more effective in disguising motives when they say “A is bad” at a different time and location than saying “B is good”. Both types of comments (Fluke is bad, Arcus is good) can be found sprinkled throughout eng-tips in different threads and times. (yes, I know they don’t have identical capabilities, but there are certainly overlaps). I am not by any means suggesting there is a motive.....this entire paragraph is soley in the context of responding to claims that there is no need for disclosure simply because these statements never appear together.

therefore...

It's clear that there isn't any problem with Gunnar's existing explicit disclosure

I would suggest that both supporting bullets leading up to “therefore” have been refuted. Which makes it an opinion. And while your opinion is certainly valued, it does not match mine. I would be glad to enroll the moderator to give another opinion if the people involved in this thread don’t think my suggestion to wait to the next thread is reasonable. I have a suspicion that may easily result in deleting of one or more threads, which is not my intention. But I am losing patience to defend a reasonable suggestion against this onslaught.


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(2B)+(2B)' ?

 

[electricpete]

Let's get back to real life, shall we?

Right. Wait until the next thread, and then do the right thing.

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(2B)+(2B)' ?

 

[VEBill]

Pete - by way of real-world counter-example, I sucessfully navigated the Chinese (!) MiniDSO website with sufficient (trivial!) mouse driving skills (hint: Google Translate) to quickly and easily find all sorts of technical details about the MiniDSO gadget referenced above. Your Swedish-language excuse is a non-starter.

You're just being silly.

 

[Skogsgurra]

Disclosure: "I and my son have developed a recorder for process signals. It has ten channels and samples with twelve bit resolution with just below 5 kSa/s and channel. We have included very special trigger functions that aid in finding intermittent failures in paper and steel mills as well as in power plants and other applications like railway bridges, meat processing and dairies. The trigger options include the usual window in and also window out as well as a unique sum-of-three-channels and a math function on which one can trig in real time. There is also a window-out trig working over several channels, which is very useful when looking for elevated ground potential in up to ten different places. There is also a counter function and several innovative cursor measurement functions using the three cursors. One of them is an automatic tangent seeker that can be used to find the slope of a trace. There are probably several other features that escape my mind. I use this recorder, named ARCUS, to help finding out and putting right problems in the mentioned industries and applications. I am so sorry that we did that.

I understand that I have no right to have any opinion about anything that may be remotely associated with this kind of equipment or the activities I have been performing at ASEA/ABB and Siemens and other companies for the last fifty or so years. This is in full analogy with an author that has written a book. It is self-evident that such a person never shall have the right to have an opinion about any written material - how bad it ever may be - and that he shall keep quiet so he doesn't disturb sensitive souls."

I will copy this text into every post if that is what the EngTips readers find appropriate. Do you?

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[electricpete]

You have specifically attacked one specific product by name repeatedly. Many forums would not permit that, whether you have conflict of interest or not. Having a conflict of interest makes it even dicier.

I told you what I suggested you include.

Your latest post is an obvious attempt to mock my suggestion.

I'm done. I will let the moderator sort it out.

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(2B)+(2B)' ?

 

[ruggedscot]

Now you know why its called a fluke - if you get it home and all the data is there then it will be a fluke - sorry to hear of your trials, usually find fluke to be pretty good equipment.

With the price of laptops and tablets etc would it be a better idea to take and download any data off of the fluke to a more trusted item of equipment? not to bothered if its local but the 1000 mile trip is a pain.

 

[Skogsgurra]

Problem is, as I have discovered now, that waveforms are not stored even in internal memory. It is really amazing.

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[VEBill]

"How to design an oscilloscope without using any high speed memory whatsoever"

All they store are the 1024 (?) data points representing what's shown on the screen. And they can do that in the FPGA, and shift it out for display. Everything else is *not* 'thrown away' - it's never captured in the first place! The entire device is display, not capture, oriented.

The above is my guess at what's been going on. I once invented envisioned a radar system using the same approach.

 

[Skogsgurra]

No, that's not true. I could retrieve data from internal memory and use it to zoom and do FFT etcetera. There are two representation of data stored: Screen and Waveform. It is Waveform data that is needed if you want to do more than just print the traces.

I could use the internal memory for waveforms initially. But I could not store waveforms on the USB stick.

After some use, There were memory places (15 in all) from where I couldn't retrieve waveforms any more - the 1000 miles trip was such an occasion.

Now, it seems that I cannot retrieve waveforms from any memory place. Only screen dumps (bitmaps).

I have done resets and that doesn't change anything. Nor does a complete memory delete. I shall now remove the battery and see if that makes internal memory work again.

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[Skogsgurra]

No, didn't work.

Rugged: Your solution doesn't work if there are no data in memory. So, I need to get the internal memory working with waveforms - like it did initially.

As I said, I have lost all patience with this device and with Fluke as a company. It goes back next week.

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.