A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game 21

[DaveVikingPE]

Scenario:

Engineer X works for Firm A.
Engineer X is required to work 8 hours a day; he is assigned a slot from 0700 to 1600 - that includes an unpaid hour for lunch. This is company policy.

Engineer X accompanies Firm A's project team to a meeting with Client Z at the future jobsite.

Client Z desires that Firm A design a new, $10 million dual-use facility for producing both pornographic media for commercial retail distribution/sale and for publishing literature advocating cigarette smoking, dropping out of school, lowering the drinking age to 13, and encouraging lowering the age of sexual consent to 12.

The meeting runs late and Engineer X informs Project Manager J - in front of the meeting - that he must leave because a) by the time Firm A's team gets back to the office, Engineer X will have worked more than his required 8 hours, and b) he will miss his transportation home. Engineer X excuses himself from the meeting to catch the next bus back to the office.

Deconstruct the above in terms of morality, ethical behavior, and professionalism.

 

[aardvarkdw]

Assuming that the engineer in question had prior knowledge that the meeting was to be held, and did not have prior arrangements that his/her employer was made aware of ahead of time (i.e. My only way home is to take the bus, the last bus leaves at this time, I need to leave at this time. Or, My kids will be home alone if I am not home by this time, therefore I must leave to catch a bus at this time. etc.), he/she may have been justified in leaving if his/her input was not required to continue the meeting and the need to leave was explained in a professional way (perhaps as an aside to the employer).

Standing up and announcing that you are leaving in the middle of the meeting would be very unprofessional in my opinion. As to the use of the building, as long as the engineering company is not agreeing to erect 40' tall statues of naked people or design a large sign for the roof that says "sex with minors is fun!", I can't see any reason that the intended use of the building is of any concern to the engineer. I personally would find the uses described to be morally repugnant and I would perhaps pursue other avenues (outside of work) to prevent the company from setting up shop near by, but as a professional I would be obligated to assist the company I work for.


David

 

[SylvestreW]

Morals don't come into play in this question. If the Engineer didn't want to do the job, he/she should quit.

Professionalism do!
The engineer should not have just left. There's reasons taxi's exist. The 8-5 work time is irrelevant. You put in the time necessary and either get paid for it or get over-time. If the firm won't do either, time to find a new job.

 

[dik]

SylvestreW...
As a professional, as opposed to chattel, you should have the right to decline a project you find morally reprehensible. A good employer should be able to accommodate this. This can be done without involving the client. Depending on your skills, you may become less marketable if you are too selective... you should have some latitude without having to quit.

Dik

 

[GregLocock]

In line with aardvark's suggestion we should destroy all larger than life statues of naked people, starting with Michelangelo's David.

And we should put curtains over full length mirrors as well.

Or maybe just poke our eyes out.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[TDAA]

For summer work one year, I was at the end of a printing press, stacking paper. I had found out that the company had previously turned down a contract to print Playboy, due to the “family/educational” nature of the rest of their work.

I tell you what, I would have much rather stacked easy-on-the-eyes pict . . .um . . . articles from a magazine than SAT test booklets. Either way, it paid the same.

For the OP, completely unprofessional. Ethically? Well, perhaps this is a case of the engineer counteracting non-ethical treatment of the employer. One who is constantly harping on production, not allowing for overtime (paid), and just let 3 people go to be sure he earned more money. Perhaps Engineer A took the threats and verbal abuse seriously and figured he should follow the letter of the law, when it comes to his employer’s demands, and too bad if it hurt him.

 

[blueoak]

I remember being an unsalaried EIT. Getting dragged off to meetings across the state to remote towns with no taxi service. Informed as we left that we would be back by 4 pm. Arriving back at 8 pm. Now with my kids' care closing by 5:30 pm, I can relate.

Skipping ethics, professionalism, and morality, I state that employer and employee both acted pragmatically. Now they both know where they stand and any complaining in the future is just whining.

 

[csd72]

If engineer X has an objection to the pornography, then he/she should look at it as follows.

If the porn company does not have a building then they will have no choice but to do it outside.

He/she is doing the community a moral service by providing a shield (building) between this and the community

 

[Ashereng]

Morality/ethics is a personal judgement - what is moral/ehtical to me (eg eating hormone injected beef), may be immoral/unehtical to others (eg a vegan). So, I usually leave that to the person with the moral issue. I usually deal their position either way.

Professionalism is also variable. In some places, it is very professional to come to work with surf shorts, T-shirt and your dog. In some places, it is not so much. So, I also usually leave that to the person with the professional issues. I usually deal with their position either way also.

If I am only paid to work for 8 hours, and my employer requires me to work say 10 hours, then they are requied by law to compensate me. If not, there are laws against that - talk to the HR department.

In the example, it does not say whether PM "J" lets Engineer "X" go, so there are some possiblilities.

So, if "J" lets "X" go. In this case, everyone is happy, no professional, ethical or moral or legal issues.

So, if "J" does not let "X" go, and "X" goes anyways, then "J" is upset and thinks "X" is unprofessional. "X" is happy, but thinks "J" is unprofessional to even think of asking "X" to work for free.

So, if "J" does not let "X" go, and "X" stays, then "J" is happy. "X" is unhappy and thinks "J" is unethical, unprofessional and immoral for making "X" work for free. In addition, "J" has broken the law - he is making "X" work for free (ie forced labour, slavery, etc). In this case, "X" would have a good case to go to the courts.

In all cases, I follow the law. I usually try to follow both the letter and intent of the law - but always the letter of the law. Ethics, Moral, Professionalism is usually greyer than the legality of things. So, follow the law it is.


"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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[TheTick]

Here we go. It was too good to last.

Professional ethics is not a "personal judgment" or "what's good for you". Ethics is about conduct. Ethics may be based on morality, but ethics define acceptable behavior, regardless of what one specfically feels or believes.

 

[SylvestreW]

"
As a professional, as opposed to chattel, you should have the right to decline a project you find morally reprehensible. A good employer should be able to accommodate this. This can be done without involving the client. Depending on your skills, you may become less marketable if you are too selective... you should have some latitude without having to quit.
Dik"

I agree that a person should have the right, and a good employer should accommodate you, however morality isn't fixed so it shouldn't come into play.

What I mean by that is - laws exist, are clear (for the most part) and they apply to everyone.
Morals vary from person to person, country to country and culture to culture. If a company were to give leeway on a morality issue, where do they stop?

If an engineer declines a project based on morality, and his/her boss disagrees, who's right? What rules should apply? I see so much grey area there that quite frankly, it's better to simply not follow morals, but follow law only.

 

[Ashereng]

Hi Tick,

"ethics define acceptable behavior". Okay. What is "acceptable behavior"?

Professional ethics is a different thing. In my case, my association has codified "professional ethics". I can read it, and it spells out what my association has deem to be ethical.

If you read my posting, I kept the two separate - professionalism, and ethics, as two different things.

Dave's OP asked us to "Deconstruct the above in terms of morality, ethical behavior, and professionalism." I took this to mean morality, ethics and professionalism as separate entities, and not the "professional ethics" as part of the engineering association's codified ethics.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[JStephen]

"I see so much grey area there that quite frankly, it's better to simply not follow morals, but follow law only."

That kind of thinking seems to have several shortcomings.

For one thing, the original post concerns some circumstances that just happen to fall into a very gray area of law- that is, pornography. It is very difficult to forecast if this will be a law-abiding business, and that would actually depend on the location, the time, and the exact nature of what they produce.

Secondly, the law is invariably applied after-the-fact. The fact that someone isn't currently in prison or on trial or under indictment is certainly no guarantee that their activities are legal. For that matter, if they are NEVER charged with any illegal activity, that doesn't imply their actions are legal, either. (Jack the Ripper was never charged with a crime, was he?)

Thirdly, this idea seems to lower standards to the lowest possible level. I think most people, including most engineers, expect something better out of the engineering profession. If you're sitting there thinking "I'll lie to this next guy since it's not actually illegal to do so", that just seems a poor way to carry on one's business or personal life.

 

[electricpete]

I don't know about morality, ethics and the rest, but in the real world, an engineer balances his personal needs against the needs of the company and makes every effort to support the company in critical situations. Working 5 minutes or a few hours over once in awhile shouldn't be an obstacle as long as there are no personal circumstances that prevent it.

The transportation issue certainly could be one of those circumstances. But even in that case, the engineer should have identified it to the project manager in private at some time earlier in the day, rather than standing up and announcing he was leaving. Then perhaps the project manager can pace the meeting to speed up or to cover some key items. Or perhaps the project manager will offer to drive the engineer home afterwards in the PM's car. Either way, the PM has a lot more options and it's only common courtesy for the engineer to communicate the situation earlier.

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[electricpete]

Greg - is it morality, ethics or professionalismthat inhibits you from working on churches?

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[GregLocock]

Morality

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[SylvestreW]

[...] "Thirdly, this idea seems to lower standards to the lowest possible level. I think most people, including most engineers, expect something better out of the engineering profession. If you're sitting there thinking "I'll lie to this next guy since it's not actually illegal to do so", that just seems a poor way to carry on one's business or personal life."

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to imply just being lawful allows for unethical behavior. Quite honestly, I separate morality from ethical behavior.

Morality has too many religious implications whereas ethics (to me) doesn't. Ethical means acting in a honest manner, doing something in someone else's best interest, not your own.

 

[DarthSoilsGuy]

I think I know this Client Z. When Chapter 17, Special Inspections first came to North Carolina about 4 years ago with the unification of codes under IBC, the bldg officials were still learning what to enforce or apply. Anyway, a strip club that shares the bldg with an independent adult retail store located down the street from a preschool was doing some architectural and structural remodeling about this time. The local bldg authorities put these people through the ringer requiring SI work on every little thing done. This was just one of the ways they flexed their muscles on that project.

The moral of the story is... next time a big hurricane comes through, you'll know where to find me.