Adherance to Ethics 7

[Thane]

To what level does the company you currently work for and/or companies you have worked for in the past adhere to their stated ethical standards?

I have found that the two companies I have worked for adhere to their ethics only when it is convenient and relatively painless. One company was a very large coporation (over 5,000 employees) and the other company is a small corporation (under 120 employees). Management talks about ethics a lot and tell you how important ethics are; however, when push comes to shove and the ethical decision would cause a slip in schedule or lost revenue, a convenient explanation is created to rationalize how the unethical decision is actually ethical and thus is OK.

 

[PSE]

jheidt2543,

A Corporation is a legal entity of which leaders and employees are but transient parts (not the whole). How a corporation acts toward its employees and competitors is dependent in a large part upon the current ethical composite of the staff (and to a smaller part the historical legacy of the company). As I stated before, I have seen standards in place for individual employee behaviour as well as for the employer/employee relationship. But I have not seen a stated policy in place for how A Corporation will act in regards, to the community, marketplace, or competition.

Regards,

 

[jheidt2543]

PSE:

I realize you are right, in the sense that "a corporation is a legal entity". The point I was trying to make and didn't, is that the corporation may be a LEGAL ENTITY, but I don't believe it is a LIVING ENTITY in the sense that a "corporation" is conscious or has a conscience. The corporation is an invented vehicle to carry out the wishes of the management and board of directors. Ethical leaders and employees make ethical decisions.

Can someone say "I am ethical", but the corporation I am working for is unethical? Ken Lay may try to say so, but it is a cop-out.

This is one reason that the culture of a startup company, under the direction of it's founder, can so dramatically change when it developes into or is sold to a corporation.
"Corporate culture" does matter, but it is the leadership that builds it for good or ill.

 

[buzzp]

"Can someone say "I am ethical", but the corporation I am working for is unethical? Ken Lay may try to say so, but it is a cop-out."

I think one can easily say this. Companies sort of grow their own personality, sure the decicion maker(s), are responsible for this personality but it would be very easy to have one ethical business guy with 5 unethical ones and the personality of the company is set by the 5. Only choice for ethical guy is departure (at the risk of putting his family on the street for lack of pay). Ideally, this would be done after another job is found.

The days of the company man are dwindling away, and happily so. I just cant stand these types. No accusations here but what planet have these people been living on? Companies are out for a profit. Thats the bottom line. Companies used to be out for a profit but were not willing to break ethical behavior or the law to do it. Thats changing.

 

[jheidt2543]

buzzp:

We are on the same page. The ethical man cannot work very long for an unethical company. However, I would disagree with your premise that there is anything wrong with the profit motive. After all, profits are what make the world go around, including paying our salaries. When working for various companies I was all for the company making a profit (a company man), BUT not at the expense of my personal ethics or generally accepted societal ethics. Luckily I worked for ethical firms and really only had a couple of instances where ethical dilemas presented themseves to me.

The problem are those who will do anything to increase profits and preserve the corporation. Again, I have to say, it is the individuals not the corporation that needs watching. The corporate culture is the reflection of the individuals running it, not the other way around. At the end of the day, we have to take responsibilty for our decisions, we cannot say "the coroporation made me do it".

 

[DrillerNic]

I'd say that a Corporation is a living entity, as the board of directors shape the ethical policy of the company on behalf of the shareholders (or stakeholders in the case of some companies). That is, after all, their job! If the board of directors decides (tacitly or explicity) to let the environment or employee health & safety or contractor relationships or whatever go hang, then clearly that's up to them- they may be forced to change to more ethical behaviour by the law, by shareholder activism (the popular pressure group trick of buying one share to ask embarassing questions at AGMs, or the way the UK pension funds have pressured FTSE 100 companies to change some of their senior managment renumeration packages) or by stakeholder activism (which can range from strikes to poor publicity to changes in the law & regulations the corporation works under).

Also I understand that there is a lot of evidence that ethical behaviour (and not just having fine sounding poilicies) boosts profits.

 

[PSE]

jheidt2543,

There is a difference between personal ethics and the ethics of a group. You allude to this in your own post "...generally accepted societal ethics." A group mentality can be very much different from an individual's belief. There is diffusion of ethical responsibility as everyone has the expectation that someone else will do the right thing at the right time. We also tend to "buy in" as a way to be accepted as part of a group. In such a situation, individuals will suppress their own sense of ethics and let the group hold sway. Extreme examples would be riots or mobs. The corporation is a group ethic entity not an individual one and one without a stated guide for it's own behaviour.

Regards,

 

[BigH]

If you can, you should read Ontario Professional Engineer's Dimension Magazine. Each issue has an article of Ethics - nice to read but very very difficult to practice. How to apply NA standards of ethics in a developing country? You do the best you can - and don't pver-expect what you get.

 

[Thane]

I agree with DrillerNic that corporations are a direct reflection of the living people who direct and lead the corporation. I believe that corporate ethics begin at the top and filter down to the rest of the company. The corporation's ethics directly reflects those of its leaders and decision makers (Management). It is very difficult to all but impossible for one person, who is not in a leadership position in the corporation, to force the corporation to change unethical decisions especially when there is no support from the top.

The only choices are to try and find an ethical compromise, put your objections in writing and refuse to support an unethical decision, or find new employment.

 

[VoyageofDiscovery]

BigH,

I agree, and practically expecting a playing field in developing countries to be similar to NA is unrealistic and thus this is one of the many pitfalls NA companies and engineers face. All we can do in such a situation is the best we can, however under the microscope it may not hold water.

VOD

 

[BigH]

VOD - I actually saw one spec say that site safety measures (eg. hardhats, shoes, etc) were to be to the "normal" standards in SE Asia. What does that mean? I try and try to get the workers to wear some sort of shoe - sneaker or canvas loafer - that way if he scrapes a pipe on his foot, he probably won't catch infection and put him out of work for a week. But workers, even if given, won't wear them. They never have and feel uncomfortable doing so. And, I find that most contractor and even engineers supervisoring/senior staff wear sandals too! It is a slog.

 

[DrillerNic]

You do what I had to do in the US when trying to get US oil rig crew I was with to stop wearing the aluminium hard hads and denim workwear with a bib they loved rather than proper coveralls & hardhat with voltage protection- you show them pictures of what happens if you don't, and keep telling them to wear the right stuff, making sure all the engineers & supervisors set an example (on pain of being NRBd if they don't).

 

[HgTX]

NRB?

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines: faq731-376

 

[DrillerNic]

sorry! You just get used to the 3 letter acronyms!

NRB = Not Required Back....Oil industry speak for "sacked"

 

[Polecat]

DrillerNic:
I see that you are a person who is fond of TLA's.
TLA = Three Letter Acronym

But, I digress, back to the subject at hand:
I've heard that a real test of ethics (or just plain integrity for that matter) is simply this:

"What would you do in a given situation if you knew that you would never be found out?" Think hard before deciding on that one.

I would also have to agree with Ron: You have to apply and follow your own personal ethics without regard as to what others do.

A company is merely a group of individuals; hence, a company's ethics is no better that the sum of its parts.

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