Advice on inventeering a monitor/alarm with mutliple displays. 2

[draymorris]

I am wanting help in finding a company that can build a device to monitor temp, probably with a type J TC, and pressures between 0 and 50 psi. I need the unit to have high and low alarms on each input and a display for each that has approximately 3/8 inch characters.

I need the circuitry to be very small and/or the displays to be located about 5 ft from the main control. Prefer to have multiple(at least 4) controls on one card/location and the same number of displays or one display with all 4 readings on it.

Thanks

 

[nbucska]

What is the temp-range, accuracy, pressure resolution, accuracy ? Have pressure xducer selected ?

How many units do you need? What is the alarm?

What is the max. size ? Any other req-s ?


<nbucska@pcperipherals.com>

 

[draymorris]

I will go into further detail. I see a small market for a set of guages with alarms for diesel powered vehicles. This comes from a &quot;hobby&quot; of mine.

Of the guages that are on the market now, few of them have alarms and only one company has a display that is small and combines 3 readings on one display. That same unit has the control module under the hood and a phone cable is all that has to be run to the display in the cab - very convenient.

Am I wanting to mfg the in-cab mount for the display(s) and the housing for the control to certain specs because I think I could market my idea.

The normal user would want to measure a temp from 0 to 1400F with the accuracy being that of a normal type J TC. A type K may work as well, but I think type J is more common. The user would also want to measure one pressure from 0 to 15 PSI - Accuracy is not very critical - 1 PSI either way is not going to harm anything. Another pressure reading from 0 to 30 or as high as 50 would also be needed - again acccuracy not too important. Many such users may also want to see as many as 2 additional temps 0 to 400, another temp upto 1400F, and possibly other low pressures. The more inputs available the more units would sell.

Alarms - some pressures would need high alarms, others would need low alarms, the temps would need a high alarm and low if feasible. The ability to output a 12VDC signal would be nice with these alarms, but lack of such would not stop me from trying this - alarms are not a must on any of these.

Size of display - something that can be read from about 3 ft by a person with imperfect eyes - I think .375 inch characters would work. The ability to dim the display(s) would be nice but not not manditory.


My problem is that I don't design circuits - I mfg plastic parts and think I can market such an item if the price can be reasonable. This won't be a mass production type job -I am thinking maybe 3 prototypes will give me the ability to test the market -and then 500 plus per year if things go right.

Thanks

 

[richs]

Sure-

No problem. I think that without a statement of work,
that we can budget about 50,000 dollars US. That will
do for the non recoverable engineering costs to build
a half dozen prototypes for starts. I would suggest
at least that number. They will be destroyed in testing
by the regulatory.

That's only for the electronics. For the mechanical side
of things, try some of the other boards on this site,
but I think you can guestimate that you will get a
similar number.

Then better budget at least that much for regulatory and
testing.

I can't answer for the mechanical stuff other than the
thermocouples, so I'd do a rough estimate of say about
$50.00 for the electronics and thermocoules. Can't say
about the pressure transducers, but they could run
up to a hundred dollars or so. Again, I can't say at
this time what they would run. Better to run it by a
mechanical type.

Several folks would be glad to build the electronics,
however, they would not take the liability of the devices
that you mentioned. That risk would have to be assumed
by your firm.

So, there 'ya go! Piece of cake. Of course without a
statement of work, then these numbers could be off by
a factor of 10.

cheers,

Rich S.

 

[OperaHouse]

I pick up the phone and hear these stories all the time. First I suggest that you decide on a target price that this device will sell for. Then work backward and see if it can be made to sell for that price. Electronis are cheap, displays more expensive, switches even more, sensors and cases are at the top of the heap. I'd be thrilled to death if everyone came in just wanting an open circuit board! Do you just have an idea? Ideas are worth nothing. You have to bring something to the table, a sales organization that can really sell 10,000 units a year, or the money to bring it all together, or the design capability to actualy create one. It doesn't have to be that expensive, but don't expect others to speculate on your dream.

 

[IRstuff]

Are you saying that diesel operators don't use anything like this now? If so, then why would they buy one? If not, what are the benefits of this new instrument that warrants ripping out the old stuff?



TTFN

 

[cbarn24050]

Hi richs, yes I think your numbers are out by a factor of 10, now I see where you get your name from.

 

[draymorris]

Regarding, what I have to bring to the table: as I said before - I will manufacture the cosmetic housings and assemble the finished product. Regarding money: Money can always be obtained with the right business plan. Sales: A marketing firm would probably take more profit than they would make because this is a niche product. We have a sales force here anyway.

This is for pick-ups with diesels in them, not &quot;big rigs&quot;. The big 3 doesn't want to put such items on at the factory because they are not needed unless you use your truck for heavy hauling or make performance modifications - then, a guage set up is almost a must to keep from damaging the engine. Currently one company makes something close to this, but has many undesirable features. And yet, they are selling many units every week at a premium. In other words, this would be a better mouse trap.

If you do not understand what kind of product I am trying to build, then you probably would not understand that there is a demand for such.

I will be happy to discuss more details with someone who can build custom controls and circuits, but speculatived numbers without a full understanding of the product are not helping.

I am sure people on this site hear of all kinds of ideas that never go anywhere. This may be one of them. But I felt this site would be a good place to start. I know that temp control mfg are a dime-a-dozen in the plastics industry, so I assumed that the technology and circuitry to do this is fairly common. $50K would be possible, $150k may not, everything can be contingent.

Operahouse - If I understood exactly what you meant by an &quot;open circuit board&quot;, I might be able to determine if &quot;it&quot; would work or not.

No offense intended to anyone. If I am using this forum incorrectly, let me know.

No offense intended to anyone

 

[nbucska]

CBARNxxxx:
They are out by a factor of 10 and they may increase by an other magnitude, if I interpreted it correctly...

<nbucska@pcperipherals.com>

 

[OperaHouse]

The last custom case we had custom molded cost $52,000. This was to have the mold made for a box that was about 3x5x2. You own it and and can take it to any shop to be molded. Then you are down to about $2 a box. An open board is just like it sounds. Layout and design of a circuit board to fit that case and development could be done for as little as $15K with 200 boards about $40 each. This low production run stuff is usually done thru hole. (which is getting harder and harder to do) What we say here is just what people will say when you meet with them. You have to decide if you are serious. We have all had bad experiences. Gonna have a tough crowd, you better practice your lines here. I remember one guy who said he could sell 2,000 units a month. We designed it and he never bought one! It as a product we could sell but it took 4 years to get rid of first production and we never broke even. And no, you cant always get money. When I hear that my notes I just made generally go in the circular file. I'm just being honest.

 

[draymorris]

I appreciate honesty.
I am just looking for information.
In regards to the box - that is what we do here, custom injecttion molder and tool builder - specializing in short run (primarily aerospace). We also do some thermoforming, compression molding, foam molding, etc. We try to take any job that we see a potential for profit. We are usually involved from the very start of the project, so I feel that I have an understanding of product development. I know that I need to find someone I can talk to who can engineer the circuit, and hopefully, quote building it as well. I don't have an understanding of what is need to get a quote on electronic circuits. That is why I am asking for help in that area. We can build a case for circuit, but I felt it would be better to find out what the circuit builder would recommend. As for the display portion of this guage set, I was planning on thermoforming and machining holes for the displays to fit in. But agian, I felt that the circuit builder would recommend the proper displays to use and then the plastic part could be designed accordingly.
Operahouse, can you give me a quote on such circuitry? I realize more info will be needed, but I have to start somewhere.

I am very serious about this. We also have dealt with many ventures that never sold and left us with a bunch of items that will never sell and a mold that is good only for scrap. I understand hesitation. If I could get one unit made and take pictures of the interior guages, I could establish a better forecast. Here we quote multiple quantities to help our customer understand what his cost will be. Can that be done for me?

Thanks

 

[cbarn24050]

Hi nbucka, I think you missinterpreted, $50k is way too much, for the electronics anyway. For $5k you could have it designed and prototype samples as well.

 

[draymorris]

Where for $5K?

Thanks

 

[buzzp]

I think it would be in your best interest to not say too much. If your idea is worth a little something then you should consult with an OEM after they and you sign a non-disclosure agreement. Then discuss details to get a real idea of the cost of the electronics. I am sure you have some contacts being in the injection molding business. Although, it may be a little difficult in the aerospace spectrum. Your project sounds simple enough to be cheap on the electronics end minus display cost.
Others may point out, the original post could be interpreted as &quot;recruiting&quot;. And it probably is. Good luck.

 

[richs]

Go for it guys.

If you think that you can get someone to whomp up a stable,
maintainable design for $5k. Let me know.

When you get the unit into production, and through the
litigation, let me know what the costs are.

I've built my share of products and gotten them out the
door. Speculative products that ask for prices get
speculative prices.

Again a detailed statement of work is required before you
can even think about asking for bids. Better yet, a
business plan ought to be considered prior to product
definition.


Cheers,

Rich S.

 

[cbarn24050]

Hi Draymorris, I live in the UK which is not much help to you, costs are lower here but that could change if the dollar keeps falling. What you want is pretty basic (from an electronic perspective), been done a thousand times allready. If you can't find anyone over there to do it for you let me know.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Dray,

I'm in roughly the same position as you (starting my own business), but a bit further along. I'm not really sure where Opera is getting his figures from, but they're way out of the ballpark for prototype cases and such...I know, because I've been pricing it out for my own projects. The easiest thing to do is call a few companies and ask for a really rough estimate given a basic box size, etc. I've found the web quoting machine at

http://www.protomold.com

to be quite useful. For a basic kit around 3&quot; square, top and bottom half (dual cavity), etc. expect to pay around $3k-$4k for the mold, which is good for around 10k cases (give or take, dependant upon material, design, etc.). Individual case price will depend on quantity, but even at 100+ you'll pay less than $4/case.

The electronics is a bit more complicated, and only a handful of the people I've spoken to about design made me beliegve in their talent to do so without gouging me on price. The more complete of a project you can present to someone, the better off you are financially. I suggest finding someone locally (a friend, college, whathaveyou) to put together a basic design for peanuts (if it's a college student, buy him $100 in McDonalds gift certificates). Once the design is roughed out, then approach a qualified person to nail down the details. As long as the first circuit is in the ballpark, you'll spend less money...I do most of my design work, but pass of the design to someone else to make sure I haven't missed anything. Cost is an unknown, but expect to pay around $75-$125/hour for a real EE to start modifying things. If they can't modify an existing design to work reasonably well for sub-$5k, ask them if they're charging you for lunches

 

[nbucska]

Cbarn:
Richs quoted $50,000 but &quot;these numbers could be off by
a factor of 10.&quot; . -- I interpret it as either up or down
i.e. 5K to 500 K.

I think the offer allows this interpretation.
The electronic desing is easy, if the specs are
reasonable -- else it may be impossible for
any price.

Morris:
I think you have given allready too much away publicly... If you want a better (free) guess, send
more specs.


<nbucska@pcperipherals.com>

 

[OperaHouse]

There are cases and there are cases. Remember this is a consumer product and the optics of a project are everything. Prices I quoted were for two DIN cases that came to $107K including rework. The nicer the nice, the higher the price. Anyway, this guy has that taken care of. Probably comes from Meadvill, PA.

I agree he has disclosed enough that I could built this with just a little reaearch on my own. Some boards allow the creator to delete the thread. He should not respond any further and start a new thread, Looking for elect mfg. in xxxxxx area&quot; and keep questions very generalized. There is always a chance that someone from Autometer, Autogage, Nordskog, Hypertech, Biondo, Dedenbear, etc might come upon it.

Pop up somewhere else, we will find you.

 

[draymorris]

You are probably right about letting out too much info already. However, there are many already producing products close to this exact item, they just seem to have stopped improving their produst to keep someone else out. Yes, they may be watching. I say go for it. This would be hard to patent and patents are easy to get around anyway. I still have a huge advantage when it comes to mfg this thing - I have the ability to build the tools on me own time and I know how to save money doing so. I also have not diclosed everything, so the final design is still in my head.

I don't feel as if I am recruiting - I am simply trying to get suggestions for a posible vendor - that happens on this site all the time.

This is my final post on this thread, I think I have a better direction now - thanks to all.